Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - jamie745

Isn't it interesting that after a decade of nobody wanting to even discuss immigration, we get all three main political parties lining up to talk about it at once?!

A couple of weeks ago a Labour political broadcast was essentially just four minutes of Ed Miliband talking about how new migrants should learn English and integrate, this in addition to his recent half-admission the Labour Government may have got immigration policy wrong. Maybe. Kind of.

Nick Clegg has brazenly binned the Liberal Democrat policy of offering an amnesty to all illegal immigrants who've been in the country for more than 10 years - which has to make you ask how illegals manage to remain here for more than 10 years, but no matter. Clegg has now said such a move would 'undermine public confidence.'

Finally we come to Dave and his 'tough talk' earlier this week. You may have seen him making tough claims about how new migrants will only receive unemployment benefit for six months, will be kept off social housing lists for up to five years and will be charged for NHS treatment.

Cameron is playing a clever game by focussing on the smallest part of the issue. 'Benefit tourism' is actually a very tiny problem, there's not many EU nationals claiming unemployment benefit here. The bigger issue is just the sheer numbers of people coming into this country which puts pressure on jobs, inferstructure and housing.

Cameron's words frankly mean nothing anyway because he supports EU membership and the EU rules clearly state we cannot discriminate between British and EU citizens in terms of access to social provision. What's happening here is the main parties - despite their claims to the contrary - are terrified of UKIP and are trying to shoot their main issues in the face without actually doing anything.

Cheap trick. Been tried before and it won't work. Or am I being unfairly cynical?

Edited by Avant on 30/03/2013 at 17:36

Leifs favourite subject - dadbif
Cynical? No, spot on? Yes.
It's time we got out of the endless loop of Lab/Con governments because we think we have no alternative.
They all lie, cheat and have destroyed our country.
If I hear Cameron say "let's be clear" one more time I will vomit.
Leifs favourite subject - jamie745

John Major used to say 'if I may say so' quite often. I wouldn't mind Cameron's 'let's be clear' line if he didn't always follow it up with something completely unclear.

Leif's favourite subject - Leif

I object to the title of this thread and I have asked for it to be changed.

Leif's favourite subject - jamie745

The lack of apostrophe? Oh come on!

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Avant

Leif, I'll take that as a request to change the heading and have done so.

Jamie, for the umpteenth time, go and find a more suitable forum of like-minded people to discuss politics with. Although we don't want to restrict the subjects discussed in this general section, this is NOT a political forum.

Edited by Avant on 30/03/2013 at 17:39

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - jamie745

Well Leif was interesting to talk to but he's gone off in a huff like a 7 year old now. Never mind.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Leif

but he's gone off in a huff like a 7 year old now.

You flatter me, I'm not that sophisticated.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Leif

Leif, I'll take that as a request to change the heading and have done so.

Thanks. It did irritate me.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Leif

There is a serious problem of foreigners coming to this country to make use of the NHS.

There was an interesting article in today's Sunday Times. A famous journalist was sat opposite a very senior figure in the NHS, and one of the most senior UK TV people. Both said that they would not favour UK people, it was their duty to maximise the benefit to the world, not the UK. What that means in real terms ... well, it's obvious isn't. May the Gods save us from these naive liberal do gooders.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - jamie745

Oh I'm not doubting we're an obvious target for 'health tourism' and I'm sure it happens but is that the biggest impact of uncontrolled immigration? It seems one impending crisis might be prompting the public to take notice of the issue - primary school places. The BBC claim there's a 240,000 shortfall in places for next year with London local authorities being the most concerned.

The whole 'maximise the benefit to the world' cobblers is just that. Cobblers. While I understand why some Americans purposely commit crimes to access free inmates healthcare and I understand why people flock here, the NHS needs to remember who bankrolls the whole operation.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Bromptonaut

Jamie,

As with Leif's post above I'd like evidence. There is undoubtedly a problem with primary places. But how much of that is down to immigration?

Have the Poles brough kids over/bred here or is there actually a much more nuanced process involving a reverse in the declining birthrate of the idigenous (including settled generations of those originally from the Commonwealth)?

My £5 is on the latter.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Leif

I suppose I should have been clearer. The false NHS claims are not by immigrants, but by tourists, who come here, 'fall ill', and then leave healthy again.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - jamie745

There is undoubtedly a problem with primary places. But how much of that is down to immigration?

A sizeable amount. The evidence can be observed by the fact there's primary schools in London now - and indeed elsewhere in the UK - where not a single child speaks English. Cameron may be focussing on EU nationals but I'm not, of course the 1.2million Polish people who've settled here since 2004 have an impact but the sheer numbers from Pakistan and Bangladesh have a big impact too.

Have the Poles brough kids over/bred here or is there actually a much more nuanced process involving a reverse in the declining birthrate of the idigenous (including settled generations of those originally from the Commonwealth)?

Both. The Census figures showed our population has increased by 4 million in just 10 years. That's just crazy for a country of our size and no 'nuanced' - god I hate your use of that word - mangling of figures can cover it up. Even the Census figures are misleading because children born to foreign migrants are counted as domestic children.

Again I revisit my point of seeking to establish the difference between people working overseas and settlement. They're two different things so don't believe the nutjobs who claim English-free schools are necessary or else we'd have nobody to pick berries in the fields.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Bromptonaut

There is a serious problem of foreigners coming to this country to make use of the NHS.

So what are the real numbers in (a) people, (b) procedures and (c) cost.

And I don't mean expressed as raw numbers, I mean as a proportion of the overall cost of the service.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Leif

There is a serious problem of foreigners coming to this country to make use of the NHS.

So what are the real numbers in (a) people, (b) procedures and (c) cost.

And I don't mean expressed as raw numbers, I mean as a proportion of the overall cost of the service.

It is tourists, not immigrants. And I do not know the figures. It was discussed on R4, and apparently it is a problem i.e. not insignificant.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - jamie745

And I don't mean expressed as raw numbers, I mean as a proportion of the overall cost of the service.

Again, depends how you slice the statistics. Jeremy Hunt recently claimed foreign nationals cost the NHS £200m a year, which if true is less than 1% of the total NHS spending every year. The Dept of Health can't even confirm that and seem totally lost as to how much 'health tourism' costs - ie people coming on holiday, using the NHS then going home.

Jobs, housing and inferstructure have always been the biggest pillars of my immigration concern. I'll add school places to that list now. Health tourism and Poles on benefit don't concern me much, no matter how much David Cameron talks about them.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Leif

There is a serious problem of foreigners coming to this country to make use of the NHS.

So what are the real numbers in (a) people, (b) procedures and (c) cost.

By its very nature the government do not know. That is because they ask the patient if they are entitled to NHS care, and if they say yes, then they are assumed to be. If they say no, then they are charged. To find out they would have to investigate all patients e.g. check documents, which they do not do at present.

And I don't mean expressed as raw numbers, I mean as a proportion of the overall cost of the service.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - RichardRohn

To be honest this is my first time to participate in this kind of topic where it is very intereting,imigrants really for me need to have a english knowledge in order to have a good communication each time their are migrating.Well i hope i can find here some topic about post office cause in Finland the muovituspalvelu and post office are one by one gone because of new technology and no wonder if in many years it will surely gone worldwide.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - FP

"... i hope i can find here some topic about post office cause in Finland the muovituspalvelu..."

Eh? Is this some kind of spam?

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - jamie745

Probably.

I'm struggling to find a link between the Finnish postal system and immigration into Britain.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - Avant

Given that the link is to a site entirely in Finnish, any advertising value will be minimal here - as are his chances of finding a thread on a UK motoring forum about Finnish post offices.

Yet another thread on immigration (Zzzzz) - FP

"Given that the link is to a site entirely in Finnish, any advertising value will be minimal here - as are his chances of finding a thread on a UK motoring forum about Finnish post offices."

Especially in a thread about immigration.

Mind you, he did say "...imigrants really for me need to have a english knowledge in order to have a good communication each time their are migrating", but I don't think he quite managed to live up to that.