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Thankyou, Avant.
AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS: The different types available in the UK car market
Torque converter plus planetary gears i.e. Conventional automatics, Known as Auto, unless they feature Manual override in which case they can known as Tiptronic, Geartronic, Autotronic or System Porsche
Continuously variable Known as CVT, Multitronic, M-drive S, e-CVT
Dual Shift Gearboxes Known as DSG, S-Tronic, Powershift
Auto Clutch Manuals Known as M/M, MMT, F1, R-Tronic, Sensodrive, EGS, Easytronic, Durashift, Dualogic, i-Shift
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I was under the impression that Durashift was the name Ford used for their own DSG gearbox, rather than an automated manual gearbox?
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It was, the list above is at the best inaccurate and the worst useless,if the public was so concerned about the types of gearbox available then the internet will give all the answer.
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It was, the list above is at the best inaccurate and the worst useless,if the public was so concerned about the types of gearbox available then the internet will give all the answer.
Another harsh and pointless comment from Collos there.
John Boy is not going to be publishing this list, it's for his and our interest and amusement.
As HB says, Durashift should be in the DSG section.
Edited by 72 dudes on 28/06/2013 at 10:21
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Well done, John Boy. Confusion understandable because the original DSG was a development of VAG's twin shaft 6 speed box.
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Thanks for the corrections, etc. The point of doing this, for me, is to be able to read a car spec and understand it without having to read the small print.
AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS: The different types available in the UK car market
Torque converter plus planetary gears i.e. Conventional automatics, Known as Auto, unless they feature Manual override in which case they can known as Tiptronic, Geartronic, Autotronic or System Porsche
Continuously variable Known as CVT, Multitronic, M-drive S, e-CVT
Dual Shift Gearboxes Known as DSG, Durashift, S-Tronic, Powershift
Auto Clutch Manuals Known as M/M, MMT, F1, R-Tronic, Sensodrive, EGS, Easytronic, Dualogic, i-Shift
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I don't know the full intention of this thread - but collecting all the "trade" names used by manufacturers puts you on a hiding to nothing - different manufacturers use different names to define the same type of transmission, if it's built by Aisin often exactly the same transmission - but equally manufacturers use names which cover multiple types.
Tiptronic is a Porsche trade name, but they have licensed it to VAG - however it's used generally for ANY torque converter + planetary gears automatic with a manual gearshift facility.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manumatic gives some of the trade names used.
Durashift is a Ford name for transmissions in general, including conventional manual, conventional automatic, CVTs and DSGs.
There's similar blurring of names for 4wd systems - VAG developed quattro for longitudinal engines and 4-motion for transverse engines, but now marketing dictates that all Audi 4wd's are Quattro and all VW 4wd's are 4-motion, regardless of system actually used or engine mounting orientation.
The Porsche 911 4wd versions use the same 4wd system as Hyundai Santa Fe 2006-2012, the Borg Warner ITM3e - not a lot of people know that!
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RT said: I don't know the full intention of this thread...
Apart from what I said above, RT, it's to get me some way towards the sort of knowledge you seem to have. Also, it might put me slighly ahead of the game if I buy another car. Thanks for the link.
AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS: The different types available in the UK car market
Torque converter plus planetary gears i.e. Conventional automatics, Known as Auto, unless they feature Manual override in which case they can known as Tiptronic, Geartronic, Autotronic or System Porsche
Continuously variable Known as CVT, Multitronic, M-drive S, e-CVT
Dual Shift Gearboxes Known as DSG, S-Tronic, Powershift
Auto Clutch Manuals Known as M/M, MMT, F1, R-Tronic, Sensodrive, EGS, Easytronic, Dualogic, i-Shift
N.B. Durashift is a term, used by Ford, which can apply to various types of transmission.
Edited by John Boy on 28/06/2013 at 13:44
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Ok, so Ford use the term Durashift generically to describe automatics rather than manuals.
I thought Powershift was a term used by Ford for their version of a dual shift gearbox.
I've searched the net for a definitive guide to what Ford's have what type of gearboxes but no luck - anyone have any links they could share?
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Edit :-
Edited by RT on 28/06/2013 at 14:25
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My 2p's worth then ...
Conventional manual transmission, ie dry-plate clutch with spur gears, is the most fuel-efficient form of transmission in use.
Conventional automatic transmission, ie torque converter with planetary gears has very good function but is less fuel-efficient and can have higher repair costs - but in practice, very few conventional transmissions, manual or automatic, are repaired these days so the cost difference is irrelevant.
The multitude of different types of automatic have arisen out of a quest to be more fuel-efficient and match conventional manuals, including developments on conventional automatics like torque converter lock-up and increased number of ratios which has reduced their fuel-efficiency differential for modern versions.
Personally, the potential repair cost out of warranty of DSGs, CVTs and automated manuals outweighs any fuel cost savings - I'd rather buy a slightly smaller car with conventional automatic if necessary.
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Conventional manual transmission, ie dry-plate clutch with spur gears,
Pedant alert!
Spur gears?! Maybe on reverse...
Pedant Alert pt 2!
The torque converter is part of the transmission. Unlike a simple fluid coupling a torque convertor has a stator which allows for torque multiplication below the stall speed of the stator. This is why torque convertor gearboxes can (and should) utilise fewer ratios and hence avoid the problem of ratio hunting.
8 speed torque convertor autos are an example of willy waving and not much else.
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Not spur gears, helical gears - apologies for a senior moment.
The intended advantage of 7/8-speed autoboxes is to allow fuel-efficient gear changes without unlocking the torque converter - relegating the torque converter to standing start use only.
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AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS: The different types available in the UK car market
Torque converter plus planetary gears i.e. Conventional automatics, Known as Auto, unless they feature Manual override in which case they can known as Tiptronic, Geartronic, Autotronic or System Porsche
Continuously variable Known as CVT, Multitronic, M-drive S, e-CVT
Direct Shift Gearboxes Known as DSG, S-Tronic, Powershift
Auto Clutch Manuals Known as M/M, MMT, F1, R-Tronic, Sensodrive, EGS, Easytronic, Dualogic, i-Shift
N.B. Durashift is a term, used by Ford, which can apply to various types of transmission.
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I've posted the list again because I'd only half implemented a correction by Avant.
Also, I've got a question:
I've only driven two cars with auto transmission. Both are torque converter systems with P, R, N, D, 3, 2, L settings. You can hold the car in the lower gears, but you cannot force it to change to a higher one. My current car changes into top gear at about 38mph, so it's always in 3rd gear in urban areas. I'm confident, however, that it would easily pull top gear at 30 when lightly loaded on a road with no gradients.
I assume that manual override systems, like Tiptronic, mean that you can change up at will. In practise, do you achieve a worthwhile improvement in fuel economy when you force the car to change up a gear in circumstances like those I mention?
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It won't change up if doing so will cause the engine to run too slow. It's no good having an engine labouring as this also uses too much fuel.
Whilst many autoboxes have a Tiptronic function function most are controlled so that they will automatically change up of you redline the engine, so there is no huge advantage. I use my tiptronic function when slowing down as a form of engine braking, but only out of habit and enjoyment rather any effort to save fuel.
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My current car changes into top gear at about 38mph, so it's always in 3rd gear in urban areas. I'm confident, however, that it would easily pull top gear at 30 when lightly loaded on a road with no gradients.
The most efficient part of the engine operating range is near the point at which an automatic transmission would deduce driver demand for a downshift (ie lowish RPM and high load.
This makes setting up the shift strategy for automatics rather tricky.
The other snag is that torque converters can't transmit power very efficienctly at low speed (otherwise they'd stall the engine!)-so if the torque converter is unlocked at low speed there's no advantage to changing up early because torque converter slip would negate any advantages in reducing RPM.
Engines mated to a torque converter coupling often make use of the damping effect of the fluid to replace the flywheel with a lighter flexplate so it might not be safe to labour the engine at low speed.
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The "tiptronic" type of manual operations includes electronic limits about which gears it will actually shift into - so you can't make it labour, nor get it into 1st at 70mph!
All engines, petrol or diesel, are most efficient at the rpm where maximum torque is produced - so find out what that is for your engine - many diesels have electronically-limited torque curves with the same maximum torque over quite a range of rpm, the most efficient rpm is in that spread but not easy to define exactly.
My own turbo-diesel has maximum torque from 1800 to 2500 rpm - from a "curve-fitting" exercise I did the theoretical maximum torque point occurs at about 2050
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Jazz had TC and 7 fixed speed CVT..
A permutation which works very well. The simplistic summary at the start is misleading in my view.
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madf said: "The simplistic summary at the start is misleading in my view."
You're welcome to try and improve on it.
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I've only driven two cars with auto transmission. Both are torque converter systems with P, R, N, D, 3, 2, L settings. You can hold the car in the lower gears, but you cannot force it to change to a higher one. My current car changes into top gear at about 38mph, so it's always in 3rd gear in urban areas. I'm confident, however, that it would easily pull top gear at 30 when lightly loaded on a road with no gradients.
I assume that manual override systems, like Tiptronic, mean that you can change up at will. In practise, do you achieve a worthwhile improvement in fuel economy when you force the car to change up a gear in circumstances like those I mention?
Driving my wife's 207 tiptronic auto, it has an annoying habit of hanging on to 2nd at just under 30 MPH around town, so I tend to change manually into 3rd. I don't know what effect this has on economy though - it's pretty poor around town anyway.
Yes, you can force it to change up earlier, but it will only do so when it detects that the engine will not labour, e.g you could pre-select 3rd gear at 20 MPH, but the electronics will delay that change until say 25 MPH..
Similarly, if you leave it in "manual" whilst slowing/coming to a stop, it will change down automatically, but stay in 1st when setting off again. If you forget to nudge it back into Drive or change up manually, cue the screaming engine!
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Still in 2nd at just under 30 mph? That seems very low: my Octavia with DSG is in 5th (out of 6) by the time it's doing 30 mph.
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Yes, although the 207 only has 4 gears. Nevertheless, it can't be best for economy to have the engine turning over at about 2600 RPM in 2nd.
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QUOTE:..""Conventional manual transmission, ie dry-plate clutch with spur gears, is the most fuel-efficient form of transmission in use.""
Not necessarily. Petrol-electric or diesel-electric can be more efficient when combined with regenerative braking and energy storage - i.e. battery.
Electric transmission as in hybrids is, from a driver's point of view, automatic, since there are no gears to shift and no clutch pedal - although really they are a type of continuously variable transmission.
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Petrol-electric or diesel-electric can be more efficient when combined with regenerative braking and energy storage - i.e. battery.
The battery is a middleman-like all middlemen, he always takes a cut. Sometimes he earns his cut, but you want to cut him out of the equationwhere possible. Hybrid is more an alternative means of propulsion than transmission. The regenerative braking capability is a no-brainer because electric motors are usually fully reversible as generators. The contribution to economy isn't as significant as it might seem and isn't the raison d'etre of hybrid, but it is a feature that's easy understood by the public.
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