Having read the road test of the new Audi TT, I have a question for people like me who've always gone for manual - if this gearbox is as good as it seems to be, would you consider converting to using an auto transmission, or will you be a manual driver till the day you die?
andymc
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Having driven an automatic Honda through Bangkok last week twice (got lost the first time), talking and messaging on the phone for directions at the same time (no choice: nowhere to stop) and not hitting anything in the biggest traffic jams I've ever seen, I'm becoming converted to auto anyway. The Audi DSG is the best of both worlds.
HJ
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The biggest problem with auto gearboxes as far as I am concerned is the torque convertor. You can have the best 'box in the world but if the oil being pumped by the engine is taking 3 seconds to transfer power to the wheels it's a waste of space.
VW-Audi are already producing some fantastic autos. The figures on the new CVT autos in the A4 and A6 are amazing, more economical than the manuals. This is going the next step and also means that the "sportier" of those amongst us are catered for. A gearbox for all men perhaps? We'll see!
The true test is how reliable it is in the real world......
Lovely to see such old technology being used updated in such a modern situation!
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Funny, for many years I have been thinking that most people would be safer with automatics.
What with changing gear whilst braking or cornering
- or because its been 3 seconds since last change
- or "my car will pull away in 3rd gear"
- or "my car will do 30 in 5th gear"
- or . . .
I have not (yet) encountered a modern automatic that does not give good control - for
(a) those rare occasions when your prediction is better than gearbox reaction, or
(b) those drivers who like to "play"
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I have not (yet) encountered a modern automatic that does not give good control
I am inclinced to agree with your original points Trev - I mean really for the bulk of us, why change gear when the car can do it for you!
However re your last point, try driving a Mondeo 2.0 fitted with the bog standard CD4E gearbox. It'll have you in tears. Not from laughter.
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HJ is right and so is Dan.
In traffic in a congested city environment why on earth do you want to keep stirring a manual box and getting cramp in your left foot? Definitely not in Bangkok or Manila (took me 90 mins to get 7 km this a.m.)
But give me an open twisty road on a fine day in a nice car with
Growlette showing an expanse of thigh and I'll take a manual any day.
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Having used both old (Borg warner Type 35) and modern electronically controlled auto gearboxes I would agree
that for city driving they are a boon, but both old and new
suffer in poor traction conditions: gravel, ice, snow, sand.
The old BW35 was useless on anything beyond a slight include in ice even an icy speed bump at a crawl would force the torque converter to wind up increase the torque and spin the wheels. This was with a 56bhp 1.3 engine so no powerhouse!
The modern auto boxes were on large powerful cars in Australia and being Oz didnt have niceties like winter modes to lock into 2nd as the lowest gear. Quite useless on the winter mountain roads we had near the observatory or on wet gravel roads.
I would be quite happy with an auto box if the winter handling can be proven to me...not just the high power handling in dry conditions. Until then manual every time.
Ian L.
ps but on the other hand when hiring abroud in a LHD car I use an auto with no qualms as I dont want to bother about gear changes.
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but on the other hand when hiring abroud in a LHD car I use an auto with no qualms as I dont want to bother about gear changes.
Me too. Just back from doing 2K around NE USA in a new auto Buick Century. Apart from the woolly steering and the velour armchairs it had a BENCH seat or almost. The front passenger seat extended under the lift up armrest with the cup holders.
With a COLUMN change auto what more could one want for maximum control. How about a foot operated parking brake with a gong and warning beacon that reminded you to boot it off.
I was surprised at such a configuration with the bench seat and not normally driving an auto the non linear gate that was not visible made it a rather vague waggle rather than a precision move. On the plus side it was smooth with a 3.1 Litre V6
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I don't know about Audi new DSG thingy, but the Neon autobox I had in Floirda recently disgraced itself by not only being slow, and unpredictable, but also contributing to consumption of about 18mpg.
If these new sytems can be truly 'manual' on the open road and 'auto' in traffic then they're the future - no doubt about it. [once the technology has been proved over the next 10 years or so?]
CF
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Neon auto-gearboxes are notoriously bad.
I have an astra 4-speed auto (don't ask me the gearbox make!), which has a funky little sports mode. Push the button on top of the gearshift, and it takes off like a scalded cat, and also provides an excellent amount of engine braking on the slowdown.
In genearl, it is marvellous for town driving, especially on hills (we have quite a large one here, as you may know) and does the business quite well on the open road.
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I think my main problem with automatics is the lack of fine control when parking or maneouvering in confined spaces. I find the ability to feather the clutch much more precise than trying to do the same thing with the brake pedal.
I've also found the kickdown on autos a bit sluggish, but certainly the "nudge" facility on Mercs seems pretty good. Overall though I think I'll stick to manual for now.
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Alfafan, that's why it's always best to left foot brake when maneouvering an automatic in a tight space.
HJ
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My dad tried left foot braking while 3 point turning a citroen c5 2.2 hdi automatic. The brakes on the car are abrupt to say the least so it proved impossible to do any truly slow moving about without either moving around using the throttle feeling the car was out of control or dabbing the brake pedal and watching the nose of the car dive. Apparently some subtlety has been added to the braking system but someone nearly went up the back of the car as he applied light braking force going along a country road to take a left turn and the car came to almost a standstill before he had finished uttering the expletive!
Now an automatic with a fine mode for manouevering which operated by a button push and switched off after 5mph had been reached would overcome some of my concerns about automatics.
teabelly
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HJ, that's what I do, just don't seem to have the same fine control as with the clutch. Maybe it's me. :)
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"I've also found the kickdown on autos a bit sluggish"
You are probably right - but as I can't remember using that feature . .
There are 2 "standard" times I suggest using manual selection of gear(s) in an auto:-
1) Overtaking. (if you kickdown, on most cars you get a "thump" - plus as you draw level with target vehicle and ease off - the blasted auto changes up!)
2) at top of steep down hill
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...plus during that kickdown delay you're pouring a vast quantity of fuel into the engine. I prefer to select D3 and then floor it - I'll change back up to D4 when I'm ready.
I'm very interested in VAG's DSG box having read the TT review. Sounds like they might be catching up with the Japanese?
Ed.
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The delay when using full-throttle kickdown for quick overtakes is my biggest problem with even really good conventional autos (like the highly competent 5-speeder in our 328). The hesitation is only momentary, but it definitely takes the edge off the performance and narrows those windows of opportunity.
DSG sounds superb in this respect, and I like the idea of perfectly optimised off-the-line performance in any conditions; just keep it floored and let the electronics sort everything out. I'd still go for a good manual on the grounds of tactile involvement and lower cost though.
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I'd still go for a good manual on the grounds of tactile involvement and lower cost though.
I agree wholeheartedly Burnout. A good manual gearbox is a joy to use and can also be a thing of beauty - check out the exposed silver gate on the Ferrari 456.
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Ten years from now you won't have much of a choice, guys.
Technology - and DSG is but one example - is moving in a direction which means automatics will be more efficient than manual boxes both in terms of economy, emissions and performance. They'll simply make the best use of the available torque depending on your requirements and the only issue is whether they'll have switchable (or even updatable) programmes.
There'll probably still be manuals on either kit/low production run cars, or those aimed at Third World markets, but for most of us it will be either a fully governed automatic or, on performance cars a manumatic.
There were some people who used to scoff at the idea that any fuel injection system could ever do as good a job as a finely-tuned Weber, and I bet the same is true here. But it'll happen.
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True. I read recently that MB has a SEVEN speed autobox in production!!!
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I'm very tempted by the MMT option on the Yaris, but I believe this varies from a 'traditional' auto anyway. As I read it, rather than being an auto in the sense of torque convertor etc, it is a standard gearbox with electromechanical actuation, and an electromechanically driven clutch. The advantage is that you have the full 5 ratios and don't get the power delay problems, but also the amount of power that can be transmitted through the clutch assembly means it is only available on the 1.0.
The main thing I like about it is that you can stick it in auto for pottering around town, but if you want some fun then you still have the standard gearbox, albeit controlled in a sequential manner rather than the standard H and a bit pattern. I'd suspect also that an electromechanical clutch will reduce the amount of clutch wear.
Have I got the right impression of this system and what do others think of it? Seems like a good piece of innovation to me.
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Anyone know anything about (or driven) a Jazz with the funky CVT-7 gearbox? I vaguely remember reading a review but I can't recall the details of the technology. May be similar to the Toyota?
Agree with comments above that we'll all be driving hybrid automanual cars in the future. Best of both worlds = sounds good to me.
Ed.
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Road test of Honda Jazz CVT-7 on this website.
HJ
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And a jolly good review it is too. cheers.
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I really dont see any argument here.
How can you ever frequently slip your hand onto the smooth thigh of your gorgeous female passenger unless you have the excuse of changing gear? The new electronic boxes are the answer. You move the hand over under the premise of changing gear then, assuming that the response from the passenger is favourable, you let the electronics take over the gear changes.
Apologies, if Ive offended anyone. Im only kidding! (I mean, who needs an excuse in real life....)
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On the subject of transmissions, why do the majority of motor manufactures give you an automatic transmission coupled to a petrol engine, but not with a diesel?
I would love to own a small hatchback--European or Japanese, that has a diesel engine and a tiptronic style box,but, guess what? Yep, very rare. Is this because a little diesel (15dci say) can't deliver the required boost needed to make a transmission perform effectively?
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On the subject of transmissions, why do the majority of motor manufactures give you an automatic transmission coupled to a petrol engine, but not with a diesel? I would love to own a small hatchback--European or Japanese, that has a diesel engine and a tiptronic style box,but, guess what? Yep, very rare. Is this because a little diesel (15dci say) can't deliver the required boost needed to make a transmission perform effectively?
A friend has a Merc A Class diesel (1.7?) with the tiptronic gears - I've never driven or been in it so can't tell you first hand but he certainly seems very happy with it.
Chad.
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In answer to enigma it's because the manufacturer doesn't have a gearbox that will fit the car that can cope with the torque characteristics of the diesel engine. Also standard diesel automatics lose a huge chunk of their economy advantage over petrol engines. Only Multitronics and DSGs are as efficient.
HJ
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