I think the four police cars crashing thread last week probably gave most people a good idea of HJ's opinion.
It did cause a bit of bovver with the boys in blue who have to deal with the problem and caused a couple of spin off threads.
It is a very emotive area when death and injury are involved and it is difficult to divorce what some see as motorists selfishness from what others see as a growing problem which has to be addressed.
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I think the four police cars crashing thread last week probably gave most people a good idea of HJ's opinion.
People who've heard this - was there anyone else on there, e.g. from the emergency services or highways agency, to give a more informed opinion?
Please don't make me go and listen to Radio 2!
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Go on! You know you want to......
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Go on! You know you want to......
Believe me... even repeat playings of Radio 2 would be exciting today.
I'm stuck in the most bizarre temp job this week - lots of people have left this company as it's functions have moved to another office. There's no work to do, so they're paying me quite well (and the same amount again to the agency) to sit here on my own, surf the net and read Cosmo on the offchance that the phone might ring (and I can transfer the call to the other office) or we might get a bit of post. The only benefit being that it's within walking distance of home so poor Polo thinks I've fallen out of love with him.
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HJ basically said what you would have expected him to say if you've read his posts on the subject.
'Balance' was in the form of a guy from 'The RAC' who didn't seem to add much to the discussion - but then he didnt even make it clear if he was from The RAC (private members club with dining rooms in Pall Mall), The RAC (breakdown service run by the same people who own British Gas), or The RAC foundation (charitable body that claims to speak on behalf of motorists)
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Sept 2004 - 'Britain on the Move'
curious ? see www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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The emphasis did shift a bit. I had to agree the police do a fine job in helping get the injured to hospital and in clearing up accidents. But if Rules of Evidence compel them to treat death crashes as Crime Scenes so that investigating one death on the road holds up hundreds of thousands of people and costs the country many millions of pounds then the law needs changing. This kind of nonsense does not happen in any other country in the World.
Anyway, then we got onto timing belts and chains and longlife oil.
HJ
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HJ, I am sure none of us would be put out were you to tip us off about your involvement in such broadcasts!
If you are too modest to do so, perhaps you could nominate one of the Mods to do it for you.
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I didn't know it was only the U.K. that shut roads if a fatal car crash occured. I agree the priority should be to clear the road and re-open it. Most policemen worth their salt can probably tell within ten minutes of turning up who was at fault anyway.
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yes, Oh Wise One, do pse give us keen radio fans some notice of your public "appearances"
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'Most policemen worth their salt can probably tell within ten minutes of turning up who was at fault anyway.'
Don't get me started again! I am one of those Policemen and comments like this are utter tosh.
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was it really you, HJ - you don't sound like your picture looks !
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Sept 2004 - 'Britain on the Move'
curious ? see www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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Maybe the combination of traffic levels and relatively poor roads in the UK makes the effects of any such investigtions worse but I recently saw a TV documentary about accident investigations in New Zealand and make no mistake they closed down the road on which a fatality had occurred for hours causing major (relative of course) disruption there.
It's a difficult question but I think a major component in such delays is sometimes the unavailability of suitably qualified investigators. Also there's the question of police liability in the event that all procedures aren't carried out with due diligence. All in all, I think every reasonable effort should be made to gather all the available evidence at the scene of a serious accident or crime for that matter. What's evidently needed are more properly qualified and suitably equipped personnel to ensure that any disruption is minimised.
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What would go a long way to helping is a system such as they have in germany where alternative routes using A/B roads are signed between motorway junctions. OK, so you will force traffic onto local roads, but it would beat being sat for a couple of hours on a motorway going nowhere.
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I think there needs to be a balance between the needs of an investigation and whether it is worth delaying people. I bet 99% of us would jump up and down when some joyrider or other rat got away scot free from killing or seriously injuring someone because the road wasn't closed and the necessary evidence wasn't gathered. If it were a loved one of mine I'm sure I wouldn't be so ready to dismiss the need of the police to conduct an investigation.
If more people chilled out then I think it would be a lot less awful on our roads in the first place. Impatient people cause accidents so perhaps holding them up is some form of karma (or perhaps car-ma... groan).
teabelly
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If a joyrider killed me, I'd rather they got off scot free than that the M1 & M25 were blocked solid for 12 hours.
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Very altruistic of you - Now tell us you'd be as happy if it was your son or daughter.
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It would appear that the H.J. interview with Johnnie Walker has been edited out of the show (on the playback on the net) as when the interview approaches , the program jumps forwards about 20 minutes. I've tried twice to access it, but it did the same on the second attempt again.
Reggie
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It is on there Reggie. For some reason there is onle large section of 1:14, then it switches to a new section with some bloke talking about the shop Biba, then if you keep listening it proceeds to another twenty odd minute section including the debate on road closures.
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Nobody objects to having roads closed for death and serious injury clearance but sometimes it is very hard to justify the length of time taken - and yes I accept that the police have a job to do and they do it professionally .
Conversely it is very hard to explain to the student who misses an exam which may take a year out of their life, the patient who misses an appointment and the chance of kidney replacement.
There may be many victims of the same incident who are affected just as badly as those injured in the incident which causes the problem.
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This debate went off the rails last time. Can we please make sure that doesn't happen again?
Cheers guys and gals,
No Dosh - Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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This debate went off the rails last time. ..
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i think renault family summed it up very well last time, that these closures are all in the cause finding someone to blame.
i take the view that on a scale of 1 to 10, currently the need and time for closures is somewhere near 10.
if it was at a level around 3 to 5, i personally would accept it as being reasonable.
my own view is that as long as there is no one held accountable for the decision to close the motorway or for the length of time taken to reopen, then the jobsworths will continue to blindly follow rules. there is no incentive for them to apply common sense and judge each incident on its merits ( cost-benefit, etc.).
if the police authority was charged £1million for each hour that the motorway was closed, you would soon see a change in attitude.
let me just add that someone i knew was killed on the motorway in an incident with a foreign truck a few months ago. abslolutely nothing has come from the hours of police time, insurance company time, and relatives time, that has been spent on this case - except for prolonging the agony of the relatives who would just like to see the matter closed. they just accept it as a fatal accident and have no wish to find anyone to blame.
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>>if the police authority was charged £1million for each hour that the motorway was closed, you would soon see a change in attitude.
Dunno. Depends if they were sued for £10m on some occasion when they didn't shut the motorway I suspect.
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When my mum was told that she had already been treated with the most potent chaemotherapy of the time, and could therefore not have anymore, we were offered a consultation with a trials team in Birmingham.
So off we set from Stoke one Friday afternoon in the ambulance, knowing that this is her last chance of survival. We get caught in an incident on the M6 and because it was not an emergency shout, the ambulance couldn't use blues and twos nor the hardshoulder.
I am sure that the anguish that we experienced wondering whether we would get there in time was equal to that of those involved in the incident. So why should they take precedent over us, and likewise, why should we have expected to take precedent over them?
As it was the consultants stayed over until we arrived at 7pm, but were unfortunately able to assist as their trial drug would have killed my mother sooner than the cancer.
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The RAC (breakdown service run by the same people who own British Gas),
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i think you may have got this wrong.
i believe centrica used to own "the aa", until a few weeks ago.
the rac is owned by a different company ( maybe lex ? )
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Perhaps midlife can confirm but I think there are two issues that can usefully be compartmentalised for discussion. The first, as rehearsed here and in the earlier thread, is the need for a thorough investigation. The second is the requirement for the employer(s) of those investigating to secure safe working conditions for their staff.
A quick safety assessment will identify a whole raft of risks associated with people using complex forensic kit working in close proximity to flowing traffic. Investigator steps into path of vehicle and rubbernecker veers off into accident site to name but two. Inevitably the control measure adopted will be total closure of the road. The person making that decision will have only limited time to reach a conclusion. The lawyers for widow of the deceased copper who walked backwards into a crawling artic will have unlimited time and funds to apply 20/20 hindsight to the decision. They won’t be impressed by a wish to keep the traffic flowing.
And then there’s the risk of a claim of traumatic stress from a passer by who sees the mangled remains……………
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Ok, thread closed. We're going round in the same circles. Most of the threads here contain valid comment but I can't see any form of agreement coming from the opposing camps. Enjoy the interview if you get the chance, but no more discussion on the subject for now.
No Dosh - Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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