Just finished watching Watchdog. It seems there is plenty to complain about the Peugeot 206 both over 3 years old and new. A number of viewers have written in about their car stalling.
Peugeot, to give them their due are investigating the problem and some owners report having sucessfully had the faults fixed under warranty.
I felt it was worth posting this in case anyone here is experiencing problems.
Hugo
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I get about 30 e-mails a week from Telegraph readers complaining of their Saxos, 106s, 206s, Ibizas, Fabias, Polos, Fiestas, Focuses, Golfs, 307s, Xsaras, Corsas, Astras, Clios, Meganes, etc., etc., all doing the same thing. Many tell me they've tried various franchises and independents and tuning specialists and none seem to be able to solve the problem, so can I?
HJ
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HJ
Do you have any knowledge as to who does the software programming for the control units in these cars? Is there one specialist company that does most of it? Or do they mostly all have their own in-house specialist?
Just wondered if there was any correlation between cars that breakdown and who programmed their control units.
But it would be nice to know whether they do their own programming anyway.
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That isn't the problem. The problem is programming the ECU to overcome problems with other electronics, plus interferance from moisture ingress and a lot of other things. Cannot necessarily be done.
HJ
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You'd think the fail safe would be not to stall the engine when road speed is above 20 or 30 mph though and risking ancillaries eg the catalyst should be low on the priority list. The behaviour sounds like some unplanned for error condition. The only way to find out what is going on is to put real time independent monitoring on the suffering vehicles and see if there is a pattern to the failures. Modern engines are just too full of electronic stuff for most garages (especially main dealers) to work out what is going on. If it doesn't appear as an error on the code reader then most of them are clueless on how to proceed.
My dad's old ford did have a habit of cutting out suddenly at motorway speeds and it was down to excess crankcase pressure from the oil separator not functioning properly. The engine was spewing a small amount of oil just in the wrong place so the car would stall but restart straight away. He fixed it by disconnecting the breather and adding his own hessian bag on the end to collect the oil...
teabelly
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In regard to the loss of power steering when the engine fails, I assume this does not happen if you have the electrically assisted type? (and a good battery) Is this true?
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In regard to the loss of power steering when the engine fails, I assume this does not happen if you have the electrically assisted type? (and a good battery) Is this true?
I guess it depends on whether the fault cuts the electrics or not, or maybe the electric pump only runs when the engine is running? As you point out, the steering is assisted but a lot of younger people have probably never driven without power steering so I imagine it would be an alarming experience.
One viewer on Watchdog said the brakes failed. Seems unlikely, but she could have dipped the clutch and then emptied the vacuum resevoir, and then they'd be very heavy but would still work.
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This may be the right place to say this, it may not.
If you experience engine failure while moving and you dip the clutch so your speed loss is not so great (to keep up with traffic or find a suitable place to stop for example) you need to be prepared to put in much more effort to steer and stop the car. Generally speaking, the motor turning supplies power for steering assistance, which has no reserve, and brake assistance, which has a small reserve. If you can avoid declutching, do so. It won't save your engine if the cambelt snaps, it's already too late, but it will provide power to steer the car and stop it as long as the engine is being turned by the wheels.
Electrically assisted steering shouldn't be affected; but I've never put it to the test.
Citroens with engine-driven hydraulic assistance have a reserve pressure system which keeps suspension, steering and brakes alive for a time limited by the age and condition of the system but invariably in my experience long enough to execute a safe stop from coasting. All but the terminally blind or monumentally stupid will notice the red warning lights on the dash and want to seek help anyway.
Hawkeye
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Stranger in a strange land
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Hawkeye
Your comments are exactly the advice that someone independent to the VM should say on programmes such as Watchdog. They'd never do it as it would spoil a media hysterical knee-jerk reaction story.Those owners saying that they had brake and steering failure were just showing their driving ignorance. But for that they get media acclaim.
I notice from all the threads so far there has not been one 206 owner concurring the owners experiences as described on Watchdog.
This quantifies the so called terrible problem amongst the 500,000 206's sold in the UK.
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I didn't see the program but isn't this about stalling when you're trying to pull out?
This would suggest that it's got little to do with electrical load and more to do with the power steering pump?
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"lot of other things."
arrange wrds Electrics and French
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woooo
hold on there
Until recently* nearly every car I had with an automatic choke experienced the stalling problem
It a consequence of lean burn technology.
Never happened in the old days with good old carburetters and a choke knob
*never happens in a diesel
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Does this site use only GMT? I see my posts differ by one hour.
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seems ok on this post, your one is timed 23:21, this should hit at 23:23
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woooo hold on there Until recently* nearly every car I had with an automatic choke experienced the stalling problem It a consequence of lean burn technology. Never happened in the old days with good old carburetters and a choke knob
Yes it did, as I had this problem for a long while with a Peugeot 309. It used to be quite frightening trying to enter traffic islands, or pull out of junctions, as the engine would hesitate, almost to the point of stalling, before picking up again. Lean burn and carburettors didn't always go well together.
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arrange wrds Electrics and French
Isn't the 206 made at the old Rootes (Hillman etc.) factory in Coventry? Admittedly, that doesn't mean the electronics aren't French.
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>Isn't the 206 made at the old Rootes (Hillman etc.) factory in Coventry? < yes it is - or it was two years ago. Before that Ryton made 306s.
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Peugeot, to give them their due are investigating the problem...
Only because it's been on Watchdog. They sent a team of engineers to the Watchgdog office yesterday - can you imagine them doing that in other circumstances?
I've had several Peugeots over the years, but once my current 406 is gone, never again. Any car can have problems but (sweeping statement follows) the dealers are inept and Peugeot couldn't give a toss about its customers.
I wonder if this is a RHD only issue - if it happens on all 206's then there must be many 1000's with the same problem?
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I've had several Peugeots over the years, but once my current 406 is gone, never again.
At one point, I said this about another make of car. Then I realised that how good cars are depends on how good the manufacturer's employees/management are in that particular era ~ and this is obviously subject to variation both ways. Now, I don't have any long-term preconceived ideas as to how good a particular make is ~ I look at how good the current version of a particular model of car is.
--
L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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The problem of idle speed control is really quite difficult.
To reduce fuel consumption when idling, the idling speed should be as small as possible. However, when the engine is running slowly, disturbances in load demand create a larger fluctuation in engine speed.
For example, if you hold the engine at 3000 rpm and switch in the heated rear window, the revs will drop a small amount. If you repeat this at just above idle, say 1200 rpm (so that the ECU will not apply any idle speed control action in addition to your throttle pedal control), the engine speed drop will be greater.
So, the idle speed controller has to be able to apply rapid control actions to a non-linear and time delayed system, keeping the engine speed as close as possible to the minimum speed beyond which rough running and stalling would be likely.
For those who are interested in the technical side of control systems on cars, I can recommend the book, Automotive Control Systems, by Kiencke and Nielsen, published by Springer and the SAE. The book is aimed at those who already have capability in engineering maths, but also has clear explanatory sections.
number_cruncher
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*Automotive Control Systems, by Kiencke and Nielsen* Sounds interesting. .I grew up via circuit design and then into systems design.
*So, the idle speed controller has to be able to apply rapid control actions*
In the end I think it comes down to a combination of doing lateral thinking and how much effort and money can go into solving the problems (reducing risk).
As an example, if step changes in electrical demand (back window heater) prove very difficult to handle, build a system that does not have any! .Make it so that the switch merely initiates the action of something else turning the power on more gently.
Of course, if you build a car with duff parts you need an extremely clever system --ha ha.
I am too long away from present electronics to know what is going on. Smooth control is probably already a feature?
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Hi buzbee,
Yes, smooth control and feedforward for some heavy and easily predictable engine loads, such as air-con and power steering loads is a feature.
The idle speed controllers of the fuel injected cars in the early 90s was really quite basic - little more than P + I. It was also quite easy to fool - it was obvious there was no anti - windup strategy, you could quite easily make the car sit idling at 2000 rpm or so, gradually slowing as the integral action cleared. Modern controllers tend not to get caught out so easily.
I think that the desire to get the engine running slowly for emmissions and fuel consumption reasons has, however, outpaced the capability of the control system to robustly prevent stalling under all circumstances.
In essence, I agree with what I think you are hinting at - that manufacturers of cars won't spend much money or use good quality parts unless they absolutely have to - idle speed control probably isn't too high on their priority list.
number_cruncher
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