Agree with all your choices Buster, except the Maxi. Any car with cable-operated gearbox is not "ahead of its time."
The Renault 16 was the first 5 door hatch, with several ways of arranging the seats, and set a new standard for comfort.
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I don't want to turn this into a silly argument, but having a cable operated gearchange did put the Maxi ahead of its time, because a most manual boxes now rely on a cable change. Just a shame BL did not get it right.
HJ
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Can't see any mention of the Renault 4; arguably the first five door supermini?
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Can't see any mention of the Renault 4; arguably the first five door supermini?
The Reanult 4 was a very clever car, though more of a different take on the 2CV than a supermini.
The omission which surprised me was the Renault 5. Three decades on, it's easy to forget just how groundbreaking it was: the product of a very different mindset to the vehicles of the previous decade.
But I did argue this before in a previous thread -- www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=22...2 -- so I'll shut up now.
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The VW Golf. Sports performance, able to carry four adults and the forerunner of the multitude of hot hatches that replaced the traditional sportscar as the young man's must have.
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From Rallying, the Audi Quattro, without which we'd not have had the 6R4, RS200, Laincia Delta whatsit and the others. It really made group B worth watching until they got rid of the class.
--
I read often, only post occasionally
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I was going to suggest the R5/Fiat 127/Peugeot 104, but then remembered the Renault 4 (and 6) actually came before any of them.
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There were many cars which now appear with hindsight to be ahead of their time. Most failed because they were too quirky or unrekliable and perhaps just too different. Many if not all are mere museum curiosities now.
I liked the Tucker recommendation, I also have that Jeff Bridges movie taped off some long ago HBO programme. Tucker was an upstart and he took on the bog boys. Bad move, then.
But what about cars FOR their time (as opposed to ahead of it)? Consider the contribution the early Fords made to opening up America. They spawned travel for the masses, the growth of pan-continental highway networks where before existed only dirt tracks, the economic and social consequences to which all of that led, and how the rest (to coin a hackneyed) phrase really is history. They were eminently reliable, very fixable and precisely a vehicle both for their time and of their time.
Consider also the introduction of assembly lines by old Henry.
Then that lovely flat-head V-8 in the 1930's. Model A or B I forget.
There you have genius and foresight combined in the best entreneurial tradition that to this today is among America's greatest strengths.
(Gotta sneak this one in) Harley-Davidson was not far behind either....
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The pink Rolls Royce in Thunderbirds, m'lady . . .
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Definitely off-topic, but think about this: In 1957, the Americans built a plane capable of (I think) 4 times the speed of sound, out of titanium, which flew at the edge of space, the pilots wearing space suits to avoid being boiled; and to cope with this heat, the plane had to be designed to cope with significant expansion which resulted in it leaking fuel when it cooled down. 1957 ladies and gentlemen. Designed probably with slide rules. And was still in use in the early 1990s.
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Mmmm the site only acknowledges Museum examples in US Museums. DUxford hae one as well. No doubt you can buy ine on e-bay as well !
Anyway - Alfa Sud. A people's sports car.
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Doesn't it boggle anyone else's mind? 1957??? Titanium! Stealth technology!!! 1*9*5*7*??
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For 31 million? thats 31 million in 1959 terms? nah not at all mindboggling. Imagine what kind of car you could have for 31 million a pop!
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isnt eurofighter 23 billion for 230 aircraft, nowhere near as advanced, or any big leaps forward
and bogged down by stupid politics, raf coulnt even agree whether they wanted guns or just missiles, just as well the have some good pilots cos the senior officers are useless
lockheed invented skunk works and other techniques (senior engineers work physically close to senior production staff) etc which were and are ahead of their time
shame really
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For 31 million? thats 31 million in 1959 terms? nah not at all mindboggling <<
I'm talking about the technology, not the cost. As it was all 'black budget' I doubt anybody really knows what each plane cost.
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The original Lexus LS 400 gave the biggest kick up the pink fluffy dice to the car world especially for BMW and Mercedes.
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Doesn't it boggle anyone else's mind? 1957??? Titanium! Stealth technology!!! 1*9*5*7*??
This is definitely off topic, I guess, but I think you may be talking about the Lockheed Starfighter - an aircraft I had the hots to fly when I was in the Canadian Airforce. It was known as the widowmaker and almost every pilot in the force knew someone who had died in one. Apparently it was on the drawing boards in 1953. The Canadian version was the fastest, around 1750 knots or mph, I don't remember, this speed determined by the strength of the horizontal stabilizer which carried an enormous download at speed as the centre of lift moved aft on the symetrical double convex airfoils. The wings had leading edges so sharp they had to have felt lined metal u-channel protectors on the ground for safety. They had leading edge slats and "boundary layer conrol" ("BLC") consisting of multiple holes on the upper wing surface which provided high pressure air bled from the compressor at low speeds to trick the airflow into thinking the wing was thicker. The wings were about 8' long, chord was 6' at the root, 4' at the tip and were 3" thick. The skin was titanium and all parts of the interior not occupied by hydraulics for the flaps, slats and airlerons and plumbing for the BLC were filled with Titanium honeycomb bonded to the skin with, I think, adhesive. Tha aircraft weighed 25,000 lb and these wings had to support around 187,000 lb each at 15 Gs. The 'plane was rated at 9.33 G max, but I'm presuming a 50 percent safety margin. At high altitudes the optimum gliding speed, should you be so reckless as to attempt a dead stick landing, was supersonic.
I heard of one story where a Starfighter with a malfunctioning radar altimeter was flying a mission over Germany and the pilot could not avoid flying through a cable which was attached to the back end of a crane being used in a high rise construction project and secured to the ground in place of a counterweight. The cable was steel and around 1" thick I guess. The boom of the crane collapsed and the plane made it back to the base with a fist sized gouge in the leading edge.
In spite of all the above, the Caaannadian designed AVRO Arrow was a much more spectacular aircraft, only 3 years later, and designed by an incredible team of engineers, average age 25, many from England. It was deemed obsolete in terms only of its intended rôle and was spirited away and cut up for scrap immediately after its first couple of (sensationally successful) test flights. No intact examples remain, although it is rumoured that one was heard leaving the base late at night and flew to a (still) secret destination!
Please excuse the length of this post
Russell
{upsidedown style of replying corrected. If you must quote the persons message to which your're replying to, then please do so BEFORE you start writing your reply. DD}
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What about the Honda Z600 / N800 (hope I got that the right way around)?
Is there anything made in the last 10 years that would qualify? I guess not. Audi did hope so with the A2 and MB with the A-class but neither was (ahead of its time) in my book.
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Talbot Rancho anyone?
This was truley the first modern MPV. This could sit a total of 7. The rear passengers sat facing backwards.
Apart from this the only people that had thought of the MPV were Renault, whilst Peugeot with their 504 7 seater estate had just squeezed in an extra 2 seats into their large estate car.
Now one car that WAS ahead of its time in the UK, is surely the Land Rover S1.
There she was, a universal road vehicle and tractor all in one, just what post war Britain needed for sustained economic recovery. AND they were built of aluminium, which kept them light, though the choice was influenced by the availability of aluminium compared to steel at this time.
The REAL Land Rover drivers use them in a similar vein today. My Discovery is used in a number of applications both on and of road.
H
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Talbot Rancho anyone?
No thanks, Should have been called the Talbot Fido to reflect the dog it surely was.
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An British Jeep - but I accept better.
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"Talbot Rancho anyone?"
I nearly suggested that, but for a different reason. It was the first 4x4 look-alike, which had no off road potential. (which is quite popular today) It suited those who wanted to sit higher than everyone else, but didn't want to spend large amounts on the 4x4 underpinnings which would never be used.
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Talbot Rancho anyone? This was truley the first modern MPV. This could sit a total of 7. The rear passengers sat facing backwards.
Absolutly Hugo, a much forgotton car that deserves it's place in history, come on RF just because it's not a Renault doesn't make it a dog. Be sensible!
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It was a foul machine. Absolute dog. Badly built, always breaking down, Looked like it could climb mountains but couldnt mount a kerb pathetic performance, terrible unsafe handling, the chasis went rotten in the middle and the thing bowed. Are we talking about the same car? stupid thing with big plastic bumpers and even bigger lights set in it?
Ahead of its time? it put motoring back back 50 years.
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Lots of info on the Rancho here if any of you interested. www.rootes-chrysler.co.uk/
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Knew Talbot sounded wrong; it was the Matra Rancho. Still a Simca 1100 under the skin though, but the 1100 itself was anothe pioneer supermini. The French definitely led the way!!
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They renamed it the Talbot Rancho in a rush of blood to the head, imaging that a evocative name would tempt buyers.
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My nominations:
The BMC Mini - took the elements of the conventional small car and rearranged them more space-efficiently. It wasn't the first car with front drive and transverse engine, but it was first to use them to improve 'packaging'. Followed by larger, prettier BMC 1100/1300 derivative, then other manufacturers cottoned on. Now most small/medium cars are transverse engine/front drive, though not with gears in sump.
I think it was the mid 1930's Opel Kadett that was the first mass-produced car with welded pressed-steel chassis-less construction. If so it deserves a nomination.
VW Golf Mark 1 - Despite VW's recent claims, it wasn't the first hatchback, but it defined a new type of family car that is still with us today in the form of the VW Golf Mark 5, Ford Focus, Vauxhall Astra, Peugeot 307, Renault Megane. Also The Golf Mk 1 pioneered diesel engines in smaller cars. It led to the diesel revolution among private motorists. Before this diesel cars were generally low volume options on larger models for use as taxis.
Mu guess is that the Toyota Prius is today's unsung ground breaker. If this petrol/electric hybrid will do 60 mpg, what would a diesel/electric hybrid achieve?
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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""Agree with all your choices Buster, except the Maxi. Any car with cable-operated gearbox is not "ahead of its time.""
But the Austin Maxi WAS the first car with a cable operated gearbox! It did cause some trouble, (new ideas are always "service" disasters, c/f - ? Rear engine Chev? -well, almost ALL new ideas, including the wankel engine) - but mostly it worked very well. And, you forget that it was the first cheapo car with a 5 speed gearbox. Took BMW years to catch up on that one. Before, the Brits on holiday used to enjoy bateing the Germans on their Autobahns with cheapo "up-market" cars with the useful "overdrive 2 speed" supplementary gearbox. This was limited to 3d. and 4th. gears by electric solenoid, to protect the unit from too much torque. But it provided 6 speeds for an ordinary 4 speed gearbox, and in overdrive top, for example, a Triumph 2500 Fuel Injection would be revving at only 4000 rpm at 100 mph. Flat out would be 125 mph (downwind) at 5000rpm; at these sort of speeds in the 1970`s your average BMW or Merc, or chaep Porsche, would blow up on a hot day after about 20 miles.
The French had nothing in those days to compete. 70 mph was then considered to be a crazy speed by most folk.
The Americans, of course, had long distance trucks capable of doing these sort of speeds (well, 90 mph) in the late 1930`s.
As they say, Discuss!
AS
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>>The Midland Red bus company operated its C5 motorway coaches on the M1 at 80 mph when it opened in the late 1950's. A turbocharged version, the C5T, was said to capable of 100mph. And these coaches were built in-house by Midland Red, including the engines.
www.britishmodelbuses.com/Real%20bus%20pictures%20...%
Cheers, Sofa Spud - sorry, a bit off topic!!
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Cheers, Sofa Spud - sorry, a bit off topic!!
That's alright. The link didn't work anyway ;o)
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No one has mentioned the Rover 2000 P4 or even the SD1 . BOth were advanced in terms of engineering (in the case of the former) and styling in the case of the latter - shame about Rover now
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