I took a look at the new Focus on Sunday, with a particular interest in the TDCi CVT version. I was told it wouldn't be available until July. I asked about the C-Max version and asked (again) about the problems with getting this car. I was again told they were keeping the transmission back for the new Focus (so why isn't it available now?). They dismissed all suggestions of problems with this transmission, just because they hadn't been told of any. One of the salesmen even said ''I don't expect you will believe me because I am a salesman''. Could be that he is right.
I had already drawn my own conclusion by that time, which was that it is strange that Ford would want to keep back the transmission for the Focus, when it is losing sales that it could be making with the C-Max CVT.
The latest development is that I received two phone calls last night, from one of the aforesaid salesmen. This was a response to my request for a test drive through the website. He obviously didn't recall my name, or the visit on Sunday. So when I reminded him that my interest was in the Focus CVT and that I had been told about the delayed release of it, that stalled the conversation somewhat. However, within a few minutes he rang back again to say that the Focus CVT would be available in March and the July delay referred to the C-Max (which is supposed to be available now).
So, what does one conclude from all of this? Personally, I will believe it when I get to see a Focus CVT.
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I would avoid a CVT transmission like the plague. If the launch has been delayed there lies my suspicion that there are inherent problems being ironed out by stressed out engineers being hassled by marketing.
In the past Ford gave up hope on the Fiesta/Escort CVT's, even cancelling technician training courses as there was no clearcut way of repairing them. I was told this by one of the staff working at the Daventry training college when I visited a couple of years ago.
So to sum up; if they go wrong out of warranty it's an exchange unit costing many ££££'s as the only repair option.
You have been warned.
HTH
Charles
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Doesn't the VAG DSG unit operate on much the same principle? What is the industry feedback on the reliability of this auto box?
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As many will recall, I have posted on here saying that CVT's are a great idea, the problem is getting them to work reliably.
Not many Ford or Rover CVT's have covered more than about 30k miles without needing a rebuild. I would steer well clear.
GM are currently trying to make CVT's at their Hungarian plant =- but production is 'stop-start' as they try to solve recurring problems. The ZF CVT in the Mini is fairly popular in the US market, but again, many transmissions are being swapped out under warranty and they are on something like 'version 30' of the software.
Let someone else do the development work - if you want an auto stick to a traditional stepped epicyclic transmission from either GM or a Japanese manufacturer.
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So who manufactures the DSG units for VAG? Have they proven to be reliable so far? Would the Honda Jazz CVT be reliable, do you think?
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DSGs are not CVTs, They are twin-shaft, twin-oil clutched manuals that preselect the next ratio (which is putting it far too simply). They are a development of VAG's transverse-engine compact twin shaft 6-speed manual transmission. Audi 6 and 7 selectable ratio Multitronics are CVTs and seem to work reasonnably well. They certainly drive very well. I've seen them starting to fail at around 130k miles. Honda Jazz CVT-7s have no record of failure. Mercedes new A-Class also has a 7 selectable ratio CVT.
HJ
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Thank you for clarifying that matter HJ. Does the DSG box have auto and manual (tiptronic?) modes?
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It isn't Tiptronic. But you can leave it in auto or select ratios yourself either by buttons or paddles (can't remember which) or by the floor lever, depending on which car with DSG you buy. The Touran DSG doesn't have standard steering wheel shifters.
HJ
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I finally took the plunge and bought a Honda Jazz CVT about a month ago, despite reservations I have shared on this forum.
After about 1200 miles I have to say it is brilliant! The transmission is completely snatch-free, surprisingly quick and so far achieving 48 mpg and getting better.
In many ways I prefer driving it to my Honda CR-V and compared to a Polo 1.2 I had to use for a week recently it is in a totally different league. My decision to stop buying VAG products is I think completely vindicated after my experience of Honda engineering.It is this last point that gave me the confidence to buy a CVT engineered by Honda. I would be very surprised if it failed and find HJ's comments on the Jazz CVT reassuring. After all, his postbag is as good a measure of a car's reliability as anything currently available.
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I am tempted by the Jazz CVT myself but they are expensive.
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My partner has a 95N Volvo 440 with a CVT (or "Hi Tech" as Volvo marketed it) box and it is unreliable. It was rebuilt by Volvo at 40k (now at 77k) and it still stalls/shudders if you hit the brakes too hard.
I was under the impression this is the same box fitted to Fiestas/Escorts in the late 90s
Good idea in principle though
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Isn't the 440 a direct descendant of the DAF? Original DAFs had to be started in gear, which can't have done much good to the mechanism.
Glad to hear from HJ that Audi multitronics have been known to fail at 130,000: at 15,000 so far (no problems, touch wood) I have some way to go yet....
Provided that they work reliably, the big advantage of CVT gearboxes is the minimal loss of economy compared with a conventional automatic.
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Yes, the 440 was a descendent of the DAF Variomatic system (as was the 340 which if Volvo hadn't bought DAF Cars in the 70s, was to have been launched as a DAF 77) - much mis-understood incidentally, and way ahead of its time. The Hi-tech version of the steel belt system only, I think, appeared in the Volvo 440. Other CVTs from the same stable differed. It could be that the Hi-tech didn't benefit from on-going development from Volvo.
All belt-drive CVTs (Ford, Fiat, Rover etc) could be seen as a descendent, as they use the van Doorne CVT transmission, albeit steel-section push belts to the front, as opposed to the original composite rubber-belt Variomatic rear drive. (van Doorne as in the family who were DAF and have the patents etc)
The original Variomatic was designed to be started "in-gear". Harm was done when people started in neutral, and then tried to engage forward or reverse with the engine revving and therefore spinning the centrifugal clutch. This would be accompanied by painful grating cog noises. When Volvo modified the selector for the Volvo 66 and 340, an electronic servo was put in, so that the selector lever resembled a "normal" auto transmission selector, and the car would then only start in neutral or park.
I had many years of fun in a DAF 55 which looked so sweet and innocent from the outside but in reality, used to belt along very well indeed, often leaving far more powerful machines behind at traffic lights and through bends, as others stirred their gear sticks.
My current DAF 33 (can't resist keeping them alive) is just about to turn 31 years old and, touch wood, is still on its original Variomatic transmission, and has had just 2 sets of belts.
Finally for now, the video of Coulthard racing a Williams F1 from about 1994 fitted with van Doorne CVT, is something that I was looking at only yesterday, and this I believe, was the main reason why auto transmissions were banned from F1 - it gave it such an advantage. Patrick Head said all the right things too! What a shame that for whatever reason - I suspect a mix of manufacturing and end user mis-use - meant that alas, the "new" CVTs have had another bad press and misunderstanding. Apart from the Jazz, of course!
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Good points by RB. I do wish more people would not be so frightened of CVT transmissions. I put 140,000 miles in with CVT on an Escort 1600 and later a Fiesta 1250 without any glitch whatsoever. A colleague had one minor CVT service adjustment in her 80K with an Escort and was very unhappy when Ford dropped the CVT Escort.
Nissan have put only a CVT in its prestige Murano soft-roader and I don't think they would take that risk if there were doubts over durability.
Yes, there were glitches in the early CVT cars. The Panda and the Y10 used to give up the ghost around 60K or even before but I heard that was poor componentry.
Try a 2005 one and be very pleasantly surprised.
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Escorts/Fiestas with CVT boxes? I don't remember them.
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Escorts/Fiestas with CVT boxes? I don't remember them.
Mate of mine had a 3 door Escort with CVT. Whined a lot (the car). I think that it was a K reg, but it was definitely one of those horrid Ford-really-couldn't-be-bothered-Escorts i.e. post 1990.
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DSG is a manual gearbox with automated clutches and not the same as a CVT or auto box. It's a similar concept to that used on F1 and rally cars. DSG has fully auto mode, or has manual change through either the gearstick - push forward or back (like a rally car) or paddles behind the wheel (like F1, but not available on all DSG fitted VAG vehicles).
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broadsword calling danny boy
dont buy a CVT
its such a bad idea
they are just so unreliable
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