Petrol or ethanol? - artful dodger {P}
Interesting article in today's Sunday Telegraph Business section on the developments in ethanol as a fuel to rival petrol.

www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/20...l


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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
Petrol or ethanol? - sierraman
In parallel to this I heard on radio 4 recently that when Diesel made his engine it was meant to run on peanut oil or similar.The then emerging oil companies saw the opportunity to sell mineral based fuel.It has even been suggested that this had something to do with his mysterious death,one for the conspiracy theorists.
Petrol or ethanol? - andymc {P}
Yup, peanut oil was one of the options he had in mind, although ISTR coal dust was also a possibility? Anyway, it's for that reason that so many people are able to adapt their engines with preheaters to use vegetable oil as fuel (something all manufacturers should do anyway), and why people like me use biodiesel which is derived from vegetable oil.

If I wasn't saving towards building a new house and could spare the cash for a third car, I'd buy myself a nice old Merc 300D, get a fuel preheater fitted and run it on veggie oil. If I could spare even more cash, I'd buy a second Merc 300D to use for bodyshell spares, take the engine and chassis and get it converted into a veggie-powered diesel trike. Then I'd let the beard grow longer, the belly grow rounder, buy myself a red bandanna to tie round my head and go cruising down to Spain. In fact, if I don't have the new house built before I'm forty I'm doing that anyway.


PS in the absence of said motortrike, the belly is heroically doing its bit.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
Petrol or ethanol? - Gromit {P}
That's right, andymc - Diesel originally set about designing an engine to run on pulverised coal. It had a nasty tendancy to blow up during testing; one such accident is said to have nearly killed him, hence the change to investigating oils as fuels instead.

If I'm not mistaken, the difficulty with adding ethanol to petrol is that the ethanol causes rubber components (such as fuel hoses) to degrade prematurely.

Like making modern diesels suitable for biodiesel, its one of those chicken and egg situations whereby if the fuel was readily available, buyers would demand cars that could run on biodiesel or ethanol. But there won't be demand for the fuels until people drive cars that can use them...

Regards,
- Gromit
Petrol or ethanol? - L'escargot
In parallel to this I heard on radio 4 recently that
when Diesel made his engine .....


Some engineering historians believe that it was wrong for compression-ignition engines to become known as diesel engines. Dr Rudolf Diesel's first patent, taken out in 1892, was for an impractical engine. Herbert Akroyd Stuart and Charles Richard Binney took out patents in 1890 for an engine which would work. The manufacturing rights for this engine were taken over in 1891 by Richard Hornsby & Sons Ltd of Grantham and they produced the "Hornsby-Akroyd Patent Oil Engine" to the inventor's original design. These engines were actually on sale before Diesel took out his first (impractical) patent. Diesel's first practical engine was not constructed (by Adolphus Busch of St Louis) until 1897.
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L\'escargot.
Petrol or ethanol? - J Bonington Jagworth
"Patent Oil Engine"

Presumably a marketing term rather than an actual patent? Shame...
Petrol or ethanol? - L'escargot
"Patent Oil Engine"
Presumably a marketing term rather than an actual patent? Shame...


The engines were produced on a royalty basis, which was paid to the patent holders.
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L\'escargot.
Petrol or ethanol? - L'escargot
Just to elaborate, the Hornsby-Akroyd engine was the world's first commercially successful oil engine. Herbert Ackroyd Stuart was a Yorkshireman, and Richard Hornsby was from Grantham in Lincolnshire.
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L\'escargot.
Petrol or ethanol? - J Bonington Jagworth
What goes round comes around. I used to use Cleveland Discol (5% ethanol) shortly before it disappeared in the 70's, and it was promoted as clean-burning. Then there was gasahol in the US, which has/had about 10% ethanol. I assume the oil companies are somewhat ambivalent about it, and they've certainly got to hand it to the Brazilians, with their 'network of more than 300 ethanol plants'. Wonder if I could grow one... :-)
Petrol or ethanol? - hopper
Brazilians have been using what they call hydrated alcohol for about 20 years (I think it's really methanol, but whatever it is, if you drink it, you die today or tomorrow). The petrol also has varying proportions of the same stuff in it, which is somewhere around 15% to 18% and has a low octane rating (eighty something). Much more recently they can buy "dual fuel" cars which will take any proportion of either fuel. "Alcool" is about 30% cheaper than petrol, but that's about the difference in fuel economy (mileage) too. So if you are on a long journey and can?t buy fuel (there are plenty of big empty spaces in Brazil), then petrol?s the answer. If you want power, then alcohol is what you need, which an absolute pig to start on a cold morning, but when the engine?s warm it?s fantastic. Diesel cars are not allowed, but pick-ups and 4x4s are. They put alcohol in the diesel too which makes it flammable and especially dangerous for people like visiting yachtsmen who need to top up their tanks and do maintenance, as the campaign warning everybody of this danger is long gone.
Petrol or ethanol? - L'escargot
I put petrol in the fuel tank and diluted ethanol in the windscreen washer bottle.
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L\'escargot.
Petrol or ethanol? - Honestjohn
Here's a press release on the subject, embargo lifted 07.00 this morning:-

MORRISIONS OPENS THE UK?S FIRST BIOETHANOL E85 FUEL PUMP ? AS SAAB GB LAUNCHES ITS 9-5 BIOPOWER FOR CONSUMERS WHO CARE

Morrisons supermarket will today open the UK?s first BioEthanol E85 filling pump, tying in with the first deliveries of the Saab 9-5 BioPower flex-fuel car. The fuel will be branded as Harvest BioEthanol E85, with the environmentally-friendly pumps featuring a new butterfly logo and a blue filling hose.

Morrisons, which is the UK?s fourth largest supermarket chain (with 274 petrol forecourts across the UK), will locate the UK?s first BioEthanol E85 pump on the forecourt of its Albion Way, Norwich site to be immediately followed by supplies of Harvest BioEthanol E85 at another four of its sites in the East of England ? those of East Dereham, Lowestoft, Diss and Ipswich ? plus at five sites in Somerset, in the South West of England. Furthermore, Morrisons has already earmarked several other sites across the UK, where Harvest BioEthanol E85 could soon be sold, according to consumer demand for it.

Phil Maud, Petrol Director at Morrisons, commented on today?s news: ?Morrisons is proud to be the country?s first petrol retailer to open a BioEthanol E85 refuelling pump, reinforcing our position as the UK?s largest forecourt retailer of alternative fuels. We believe that by encouraging the use of BioEthanol E85 we can contribute to a reduction in the harmful effects to the environment caused by the burning of fossil fuels.? Mr Maud went on to comment: ?Furthermore, creating demand for this product will, in the medium to long term, present major opportunities for UK farmers, who have always had strong support from Morrisons, to supply their excess cereals
capacity to supply BioEthanol manufacturers.?

Harvest BioEthanol E85 will retail for 2 pence per litre less than petrol. In Norwich, this means that, at the time of launch, it will sell for 84.9 pence per litre compared to 86.9 pence per litre for unleaded petrol. Morrisons has chosen East Anglia for the launch because of the region?s role in spearheading the fast-emerging UK biofuels industry.

The availability of BioEthanol E85 on the first UK forecourts has been timed to coincide with the first customer deliveries of the Saab 9-5 BioPower, which was officially launched in the UK in November 2005. Saab is leading the premium sector in being the first manufacturer to offer this innovative solution. Saab BioPower technology enables its cars to run on either the potent yet environmentally-friendly fuel BioEthanol E85, which is a blend of 85% BioEthanol and 15% petrol, or on pure petrol, without any adjustment required by the driver. When running on BioEthanol E85, the fossil CO2 emissions of the Saab 9-5 BioPower are typically between 50-70% cleaner than when running on petrol. Furthermore, as its name suggests, the Saab 9-5 BioPower not only offers purer power, but more of it. Because Saab?s turbocharging technology and engine management systems make it possible to take advantage of bioethanol?s higher octane rating, an impressive 20 per cent gain in brake horse power and 16 per cent growth in torque can be enjoyed when the car runs on BioEthanol E85 compared to when running on regular unleaded petrol.

Jonathan Nash, Managing Director of Saab Great Britain, said: ?Biofuels can play a crucial role in reducing CO2 emissions from passenger cars, and as the Government itself said when it announced plans for a Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO) in November, a 5% use of biofuels today would be equivalent to taking one million cars off the road. Although I welcome the positive steps that the British Government has taken so far in its introduction of a 5% RTFO and the 20 pence-per-litre tax rebate on biofuels, our experience in other markets shows that the Government needs to take a more strategic approach. Government should show genuine joined-up thinking, by introducing an integrated package of long-term incentives to give consumers the confidence to make the switch to greener fuels, including BioEthanol E85.?

Mr Nash went on to point out that: ?In Sweden, central and local government financial incentives to encourage BioEthanol-fuelled cars ? including a reduction in company car tax, exemption from Stockholm?s congestion charges and free city parking ? have resulted in over five and a half thousand Saab 9-5 BioPower cars already being delivered to Swedish drivers since last summer. Here in the UK, Morrisons has demonstrated its commitment to the fuel ? now let's see the Government do the same.?

Futura Petroleum will supply Morrisons with the Harvest BioEthanol E85 in an initiative supported by the Energy Saving Trust and Renewables East.

Simon Davis, Head of Sales at Futura Petroleum, the supplier of Harvest BioEthanol E85 to Morrisons, commented: ?We are delighted to be working with Morrisons and Saab to provide Harvest BioEthanol, the first E85 available to the UK public. This launch reinforces Futura?s position as the leading supplier of renewable motor fuels
to British motorists.?

Also commenting on the arrival of BioEthanol E85, Tim Curtis, Director of Operations at the Energy Saving Trust, which is a not for profit organisation funded by the Department for Transport, Scottish Executive and the Welsh Assembly Government, added: ?Today?s opening sends an important message to both businesses and consumers that retailers and manufacturers are taking the carbon challenge seriously and finding real solutions to reduce increasing CO2 emissions from road transport. What?s more, the Energy Saving Trust is pleased to announce that projects of this type can receive grant support via its infrastructure programme, providing further incentives for industry to develop alternative refuelling options to deliver a more sustainable transport future.?

James Beal, Managing Director of Renewables East, the public-funded renewable energy agency for the East of England which is pioneering the development of biofuels and other forms of renewable energy in East of England, said: ?I congratulate Morrisons for its proactive action in launching Harvest BioEthanol E85. Developing this market has the opportunity to create and secure up to 10,000 jobs in agriculture and fuel production in the UK, thereby providing an important market opportunity for the East of England given its position as the cereal-growing capital of the UK.

BioEthanol E85
BioEthanol is produced from a wide variety of agricultural produce, including forest residue, sugar cane, sugar beet and grain, making it a totally renewable and sustainable fuel source. When mixed in high volumes with low volumes of petrol, a potent yet environmentally friendly fuel, known as BioEthanol E85 is created.

Unlike traditional fossil fuels such as petrol and diesel, the consumption of BioEthanol E85 does not significantly raise atmospheric levels of Carbon Dioxide (CO2), which is the greenhouse gas that, according to some scientific research, contributes to global warming. This is because the emissions that are released during driving have already been cancelled out by the amount of CO2 that was removed from the atmosphere, through nature's photosynthesis process, when the crops for conversion to BioEthanol were grown.

Petrol or ethanol? - J Bonington Jagworth
"according to some scientific research"

That's a bit cautious! Are they waiting for the waves to start lapping at their door before accepting the notion?

I see they're mixing it with some petrol. That's to spoil the flavour, presumably... :-)
Petrol or ethanol? - J Bonington Jagworth
PS - Can I go to Morrisons and put in a gallon of E85, followed by 9 gallons of unleaded? Should run very nicely...
Petrol or ethanol? - Collos25
Its a total disaster in Brasil using sugar cane based ethanol hardly anybody uses it beacause it gums everthing up.On my last contract in Sau Paulo state I never saw anybody use it.
Petrol or ethanol? - Dipstick
Very interesting. I'm not anti ethanol at all, but reading this with an open mind leads me to these points.

The claim of ten thousand jobs made by Nash (Saab MD) appears unsubstantiated. It was first presented to a group of MPs by a consortium including Saab, from press releases I can find. I'd be interested to know if this was plucked out of the air - if not, they should say how they arrived at it.

The government is offering a 20 pence per litre rebate on tax for this stuff. Morrisons are selling it a 2p per litre below unleaded.

If ethanol produces 70% less CO2, then a car using 5% ethanol will produce 3.5% less CO2 overall, unless my maths is wrong. As according to the DFT there are 20 million (taxed) petrol cars on the road, then a reduction of 3.5% in that number is only seven hundred thousand, not one million.

Finally, the 70% CO2 reduction figure is achievable only by using a type of factory that produces a LOT of nitrous oxide, according to the report to be found on the research section of the British Sugar website. British Sugar were one of the consortium I mentioned above. (Nitrous oxide is present in the atmosphere where it acts as a powerful greenhouse gas - wikipedia). Compared to producing unleaded fuel, there is a 35,614 percent INCREASE in the amount of this gas produced. That's a LOT of extra greenhouse gas to..um..slightly reduce another greenhouse gas.

Oh, and from 2010 it will be a legal requirement that all fuel sold in the UK from forecourts will be 5% ethanol, apparently.

Petrol or ethanol? - L'escargot
Oh, and from 2010 it will be a legal requirement that
all fuel sold in the UK from forecourts will be 5%
ethanol, apparently.


This should please the petrol sniffers!
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L\'escargot.
Petrol or ethanol? - J Bonington Jagworth
"in Brasil using sugar cane based ethanol hardly anybody uses it beacause it gums everthing up"

Are they leaving the sugar in, then? Ethanol should burn perfectly cleanly (think meths burner) as any drag racer will testify.
Petrol or ethanol? - Collos25
Apparently it burns to hot and cooks the valves and seals or the quality control is poor and product can vary so people leave it alone.Even the cars specially built (they have an ALCOOL logo on the boot)for this fuel have the same problem.
Petrol or ethanol? - L'escargot
Its a total disaster in Brasil using sugar cane based
ethanol hardly anybody uses it beacause it gums everthing up.On my
last contract in Sau Paulo state I never saw anybody use
it.


Perhaps it wasn't sufficiently refined.
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L\'escargot.