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I disagree with the OP, I tested an Avensis D4D T180 recently as reported on another thread and reckon the latest Passat has marginally better quality plastics and switch gear. By all accounts the Avensis is likely to be more reliable though.
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astonishingly competent large saloons for transporting reps up and down the motorways swiftly and comfortably. >>
Blatant stereotyping, that is not what they are for, rather it happens to be one of many atributes of the contemporary medium sized car.
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Blatant stereotyping, that is not what they are for, rather it happens to be one of many atributes of the contemporary medium sized car.
Not at all, that is exactly the target market in the uk. The number bought brand new by priivate buyers is small.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Not at all, that is exactly the target market in the uk. The number bought brand new by priivate buyers is small. ------------------------------ TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
>>
And you know better than I TVM that co car drivers choose their cars on the basis of their family, their dog and all sorts of factors in addition to m/way performance.
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I don?t really see that there is any stereotyping, as TVM rightly says the vast majority of this class of cars are company vehicles, provided predominately for field employees who drive the length and breadth of the country on business. AFAICT with the increase in niche car markets this is business role is largely the raison d?etre of the mid-size saloon. Many companies have restricted the choice of field vehicle to just this class or below, often with no more than 2 litre engines and no less than 4 doors, so it is intense competition for this fleet business which has driven the manufacturers to raise their game particularly in this class, really closing the gap on the small exec.
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Turbo's post rather proves my point in that you could easily swap Mazda and passat around, or substitute either with Vectra, Accord, Avensis, Mondeo and still have a opinion which would be validly held by any number of people. Horsesand courses as he rightly confirming that the premise of the OP is rather pointless.
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My Passat is almost 5 years old and has done almost 90000miles.
Only visible wear in interior is the peeling of the outer layer of driver's door handle assembly and a tatty gear leaver gaiter. All other upholstery anf plastics are fine.
--
I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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My Passat is almost 5 years old and has done almost 90000miles. Only visible wear in interior is the peeling of the outer layer of driver's door handle assembly and a tatty gear leaver gaiter. All other upholstery anf plastics are fine. --
My Mondeo is 4 years old and has done 110,000 miles, it too suffered peeling of the inner layer of the driver's door handle assembly however I replaced it at a cost of less than a fiver, the gear lever gaiter is fine as is the rest of the interior, the switches show no signs of wear.
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The interesting thing is just how competent cars in the class (and the next one down - Focus, Astra etc) have become.
I can remember trying a colleague's E36 3 Series eight years ago and thinking the gap to my then Mk1 Avensis was simply enormous. The gap today is much, much smaller.
When roadtesting cars a year ago I tried A4, X-Type, S40, 9-3 and IS250. I also drove various hatchback hire cars and the gap was quite narrow. Interestingly, one of the big differences for me between "exec" and "rep" cars WAS the interior. Al the exec models had much nicer interiors (except the Saab).
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I was only joking about the 'jap taxi' label!
The test is on page 93 of the September edition of Whatcar? They mearly commented that the plastics feel cheaper than those of the Toyota and It made me smile because years ago, the idea of a Toyota having better quality plastics than a VW was highly unlikely to say the least.
Just the role reversal amused me is all!
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If you read the road test of the Auto express this week, the conclusion is entirely to the contrary on interior plastic quality, Passat versus Avensis! Try it yourself is the only answer.
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If you read the road test of the Auto express this week, the conclusion is entirely to the contrary on interior plastic quality, Passat versus Avensis! Try it yourself is the only answer.
At the end of the day if someone makes a decision on a car purchase based on the "quality" (ie feel) of the plastics inside, as opposed to anything else, they deserve all they get if they have problems or are unhappy for whatever reason.
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Indeed any buying decision based solely on any one aspect of a car, be it reliability, performance, plastic quality, style to the exclusion of other considerations is likely to be regretted.
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The main difference between the Toyota 2.2 chain-cam T180 and VAG's new TDI PD 170 is the way the T180 pulls cleanly from 1,000rpm and the VW doesn't pull properly until 1,700rpm. Toyota has gone from a mediocre belt-cam 2.0 litre diesel to the best 2.0 - 2.2 litre diesel engine in the world. If they had decided to make the Avensis sporty it could easily have been done. Take a look underneath at the suspension. There is huge potential, but Toyota choses not to go that route because of the stress and wear it would cause in the bushes.
HJ
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HJ,
I recently drove an Avensis T180 as reported in detail in another thread, yes it pulls cleanly from low revs and feels responsive when pootling along at 1500 or so though when you put your foot down it does not really pull strongly until it reaches 2000 rpm, in contrast my Mondeo TDCi 130 is much stronger below 2000 rpm and a 2.2 Mondeo / X-Type is another world at such revs. This is perhaps born out by Toyota claiming peak torque from 2000 rpm. As I also said I reckon a 320d 150 is more torquey below 2000 rpm than the T180. Otherwise the T180 is a fine punchy and refined diesel though doesnt quite ever feel like 177bhp.
Regards.
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Back to original question of quality..
Well as a Passat fan and driver/owner and fairly experienced in dealing with Avensis's my humble opinion is thus:
Ahem er.. The interior quality of an Avensis is er.. significantly better than the Passat.
Don't forget that the current Passat Plastic quality has been deliberately downgraded from previous incarnations in order to put daylight between it and Audi products.
The front door trim panels forward of the armrest in the Passat are of particular bad quality. nothing more than cheap and nasty hardboard (that looks like cardboard!). My only major grumble with the Passat you understand..
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Don't forget that the current Passat Plastic quality has been deliberately downgraded from previous incarnations in order to put daylight between it and Audi products.
This is a fantastic irony, considering we were comparing Japanese cars to Amstrad stereos...
In the mid-1980s, when Amstrad introduced their first midi-system with CD player (and record deck of course) Alan Sugar couldn't tell the difference between the record player and CD. Sugar's answer -- make the record deck sound worse to show the CD player in a better light.
Who was it that was employing Amstrad tactics again?
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Ahem er.. The interior quality of an Avensis is er.. significantly better than the Passat.
The Avensis is fine though the switch gear is nothing special nor is the silvery finish of the centre console, I think the Passat exudes more quality though, as I said before, it is perhaps more likely to have problems.
Don't forget that the current Passat Plastic quality has been deliberately downgraded from previous incarnations in order to put daylight between it and Audi products.
This is pure speculation surely.
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"Ahem er.. The interior quality of an Avensis is er.. significantly better than the Passat."
It's a valid opinion, like the opinions expressed by some posters here and in reviews elsewhere which reach a different conclusion, all of which reconfirms that which is better in this comparison is a matter of taste rather than fact. As I say they both struck me as much of a muchness, not especially memorable and there was no significant advantage in either.
"the current Passat Plastic quality has been deliberately downgraded from previous incarnations in order to put daylight between it and Audi products."
I don't recall hearing this and would be surprised as I can?t see that there is sufficient commonality between the Passat and A4 to require such a blunt differentiation. I'm happy to be proved wrong and would be keen to read the source.
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Anyone know hot the new PSA 2.2 twin turbo diesel fairs compared to the current crop of diesels. Only 170 hp I think, but these PSA know a thing or two about diesels.
Should chip nicely me thinks.
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Toyota has gone from a mediocre belt-cam 2.0 litre diesel to the best 2.0 - 2.2 litre diesel engine in the world. HJ
Pleased to hear that HJ as I have just bought a 2.2 150!
Is it definitely correct that the 150 engine is chain-driven too? When I picked up my car I mentioned that to the salesman and he was slightly surprised; he thought it was still a belt-cam engine, although did admit that he probably did not know everything about the facelifted Avensis.
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Is it definitely correct that the 150 engine is chain-driven too?
All Avensis engines are now chain cam.
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All Avensis engines are now chain cam.
Cheers. You'd think Toyota would tell the dealers eh? ;-)
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>> >> All Avensis engines are now chain cam. >> Cheers. You'd think Toyota would tell the dealers eh? ;-)
According to another post recently a Honda salesman did not know that the Accord diesel has a turbocharger!
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According to another post recently a Honda salesman did not know that the Accord diesel has a turbocharger!
Yes, I read that one and was tempted to reply at the time. That is one seriously outstanding howler from the salesman!
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Can't speak about the Passat, but you only have to look at a used Mk5 Golf to see that VW has been doing some cost-cutting recently. Quality of parcel shelf, boot plastics, rattles from handbrake trim, doors and dash.
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Agree with Aprilia there - my mate spent the best part of 17 grand on a new Golf a few months ago and it's laughable when you sit in it and feel the quality. Everything feels so cheap and flimsy. The funny thing is, he had a late Brava before it and that felt much more solid. (Wouldn't want either though really).
What's the world coming to? Solid feeling Fiats? ;-)
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To call the cabin laughable is clearly ridiculous but I have to agree that the current Golf appears to have some questionable plastics in certain areas and the fittings don?t feel as solid as it?s predecessor, though being a hugely better car to drive maybe VW have realigned their priorities and budgets. If sales of the Golf plummet they will have to revisit this issue though the scrimping on cabin materials does tend to be a trend with some of the formerly premium brands. IMO the former A6 had better quality fittings and materials than the current model, the former 5 series was streets ahead of the very poorly appointed cabin of the current model and if you really want a laugh try the 1 series, it?s a shocker. However, clearly the budget and effort has been directed in other areas and people are buying these cars.
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>> maybe VW have realigned their priorities and budgets. >>
I think that is a good point, it is likely that after the somewhat stodgy 97-04 Passat and MkIV Golf VW realised that people want cars that are good to drive and realigned some resource into the chassis dept at the expense of material quality. A much better explantion than the suggestion that they deliberately downgraded the new Passat to differentiate between it and the A4.
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Indeed. The Passat is an even better case in point as it was lauded for it's cathedral-like capacity and for raising the bar way above the norm for this class but it was when the new Mondeo arrived with it's improved cabin quality and superior that people started to focus on the Passat's dead handling. I guess that the renaissance of Ford with their better handling cars has made VW reassess and redirect their strategy and with intense competition and finite budgets, to offer improvements in targeted areas other corners have to be cut.
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I think you are correct though it is a fine balance to be struck, to maintain their reputation for quality trim and materials while others have improved in this area at the same time as try to build a reputation for fine handling, if they are not careful the could fall between stools. As it is the MkV Golf is a fine drivers car so they seem to be getting it right, on the other hand the MkII Focus is just as good to drive and equally well made.
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>>Don't forget that the current Passat Plastic quality has been deliberately downgraded from previous incarnations in order to put daylight between it and Audi products.<<
I'm sorry but chief VAG basher cannot contain himself any longer.
It's just a shame that VW did not reduce it's high prices when they reduced the quality that is supposed to make them different.
I do agree that VW have helped move the game on in terms of the quality we see inside todays mainstream cars. IMO though they did it very much on the cheap and so it was only superficial quality (e.g. thin strips of rubber on cheap plastic that falls off after a few thousand miles & and a bit of damping in the right places).
The effect this had on the competition was to force them to catch up - and catch up they did - but they seem to have done it properly unlike VW.
What VW failed to do was the robust process and quality engineering that companies like Honda and Toyota do so well.
VW UK have been brilliant at pulling the wool over peoples eyes and making them believe that they are getting a superior product and that it is worth paying a premium for it.
The fact is their cars are more unreliable than alot of the competition, the customer service is terrible compared to the competition and they are now in a downward spiral of cheapening their cars because they are too expensive to make.
The competition on the other hand have not invested in sticking rubber on switches, they have invested in proper process engineering. This has enabled them to make cars at lower cost and improved quality (while VW go backwards).
The reason I will not buy another VAG product is that I disapprove of the way their marketing department try and make people believe that they are getting a premium product when clearly they are not, and as I have said before every reliability or customer survey carried out proves this.
When will people wake up and realise that paying a premium for a VW is not worth it - buy a skoda or SEAT - it is the same car.
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I think that springboarding your rant off a quote that thus far appears to be complete speculation doesn't help your cause To further include speculation in your post just compounds the problem.
I don't know the details of your situation but you sound like someone I described in another recent thread who had a bad experience with a car but rather than get it in perspective and move on, can't help but whinge and rail relentlessly and irrationally against the manufacturer and indeed the entire automotive group. You had a problem, they didn't listen to you, you're never going to get another VAG product, we get it, it happens over and over agin with every manufacturer, get over it
Every company goes through good and bad cycles but recent surveys show VW to score average on reliability alongside Ford, BMW, Nissan and Volvo and consistently better than LR, Jaguar, MB, GM - do you bang on about these manufacturers, many of whom charge real premium prices? Also maybe I'm reading the wrong ads but I don't see that there appears to be much if any of a premium these days on the prices VW charge against competitors, like for like cars in the Passat/Accord/Avensis class all seem to be within £500-£1000 of each other.
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Maybe my rant was misunderstood.
My real point is how can a car maker make the same car with 3 different badges and charge different.
The price of an Octavia does not equal the prices of a Leon that does not equal the price of a Golf.
When you read the customer sat surveys Skoda always comes out better than VW - if the cars are the same surley the differentiator is customer service - so why pay the premium ?
As HJ says in his recent TT roadtest
"A Golf with the same 200PS turbo engine as the new Audi TT is £5,000 less. A Leon with the same engine is £9,000 less. The TT always was an expensive style statement with exquisite touches that buyers persuaded themselves made it worth the money." (He does go on to say the NEW one is worth the difference).
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PS just to clear up your point Martin - I had a bad experience with 7 brand new VWs on the trot.
And yes - more fool me for going back 6 times after the 1st.
Now I own a Honda and all is well - all I am doing is passing on not my feelings but actual experiences with the VAG brand.
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Now I own a Honda and all is well - all I am doing is passing on not my feelings but actual experiences with the VAG brand.
You certainly are passing on your feelings,over and over and over again.
I think your needle is stuck, its time to change the record because that ones got boring
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It's no more annoying than your anti-Ford rants.
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And your last lack of trust in your last VW oil service.
What should we talk about when we have an experience to pass on - the weather ?
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You dont see me keep posting about ford trying to get £900 out of me for work that did not need doing on my focus estate. Vosa kicked there butt i informed the backroom what they had done and never posted about them again.
Now if i go down the same route as you then everytime somebody mentions ford i have to bore everyone by sticking the knife in?
Think i have had five fords now and they have all suffered suspension problems and electrical faults but i dont jump into a post when ford are mentioned to throw my rattle.
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There's a chance I'm mixing you up with someone else. If I am, I apologise as I have no recollection of VOSA or anything like that.
If I'm not, then...whatever.
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It would be interesting to see the advertising spend per car sold for each brand - I suspect VW buyers are paying for more advertising, and Audi buyers even more.
Regardless of that, it's basic market segmentation - some people want to pay more for what is to them a better product, others buy on price, or a different style, etc. etc. They are just covering all the main segments of the mass market.
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I agree with your point on market segmentation but surely when people buy on price should they be getting a better product for a higher price. I think that is what market segmentation is about.
You should get what you pay for.
Most companies regardless of what service or product they provide aim to reduce costs and improve quality through their internal improvement programmes.
I'm sure we all work for companies that are far more efficient at what they do today than they were 10 years ago, enabling them to maintain quality at lower internal costs.
Most commodities cost more because they are better quality not because they carry a different badge.
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?surely when people buy on price should they be getting a better product for a higher price?
When you mean ?buy on price? do mean get the most car for the least money? By this rationale surely the Accord, Passat or even the Octavia are a shaft as I?m sure that you can get a lot more Korean metal for a lot less money. And what?s a better product? More practical, more reliable, more stylish, more economical, more refined, faster? Your view on what is a better quality car is simply your opinion, Thousands of people have tested Accords and Avensis and yet chosen Passats, Mondeos, Octavias or other vehicles. For these people the Accord clearly wasn?t the better choice at the price. I?m quite sure that many have tested the Octavia and preferred the Passat. Again horses for courses.
?My real point is how can a car maker make the same car with 3 different badges and charge different. "A Golf with the same 200PS turbo engine as the new Audi TT is £5,000 less. A Leon with the same engine is £9,000 less. The TT always was an expensive style statement with exquisite touches that buyers persuaded themselves made it worth the money." (He does go on to say the NEW one is worth the difference).?
Well if anything, HJ?s statement answers your question to an extent. First off having the same basic and floorpan and with the same engine doesn?t make them the same car. Almost every review I?ve read remarks on how differently these cars drive and I?ve yet to hear someone comment on how the cabins are all the same. HJ conclusion that the price difference is worth the difference rather proves the point. But the bottom line is that they can charge whatever their target market will bear because whilst their buyers want those exquisite touches and are convinced that they are worth the money to have, then what you, I, HJ or anyone thinks doesn?t matter a jot.
Nothing that I?ve read, heard or experienced leads me to believe that your quite extraordinary and weirdly unlucky experience with VAG products is anything but an atypical experience. I can?t begin to comprehend why on earth you would ignore the obvious incompatibility and repeat the experience, 7 times, but speaking as someone who had a brand new and very unreliable car off the road for months in a relatively short period of ownership my advice would be that you?re out now and you must let go.
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Agree with Aprilia there - my mate spent the best part of 17 grand on a new Golf a few months ago and it's laughable when you sit in it and feel the quality. Everything feels so cheap and flimsy.
Well, I sit in my MKV Golf and the last thing I think of is that it is laughable! I may not like, particulary, the overall greyness of the trim, but everything, to me, feels solid and well made except perhaps for some minor detailing here and there.
Perhaps it is a matter of what you're used to, obviously. The interior is far better that the new Focus or my last Rover 400 but again, perhaps those two are not the best comparisons.
Just look inside a Toyota Corolla for example to see what a grotty interior is like with its unremittingly gloomy black interior and cheap looking fabrics on the seets and that dreadful metallic looking centre console on the T-Spirit range.
We do get off the subject, don't we?
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>> >> ...................... with its unremittingly gloomy black interior and cheap looking fabrics on the seets and that dreadful metallic looking centre console on the T-Spirit range. We do get off the subject, don't we?
Seets! What are they? I mean't seats, of course.
Why, Oh why, can't we have and edit button?
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Laughable i the wrong word to use - I was haviing a bad day but it's getting better. Shocki...no - surprising. Even my mate doesn't like it and he's just bought the VW sat nav to liven it up a bit. It's already had a couple of niggling faults and rattles (it's an 06 plate car). However, it could just be "new car faults" that could happen on any car but he's not that happy about it.
I will agree with you - it's better than the Mk2 Focus interior and I couldn't agree with you more about the majority of Jap car interiors - I don't care if they're solid - they look like they've been fashioned out of coal.
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I'm happy to be proved wrong and would be keen to read the source>>
Yup, it's the well informed boys over at the 'Autocar' magazine.
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>>I will agree with you - it's better than the Mk2 Focus interior and I couldn't agree with you more about the majority of Jap car interiors - I don't care if they're solid - they look like they've been fashioned out of coal. <<
Adam - I would like to disagree completely with your statement about Jap cars interiors being fashioned out of coal - but I can't because that is exactly what the inside of my accord and corolla look like.
And don't get me started on the Japs trying to do wood inside a car.
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I'm afraid that takes us no further on. Are you simply passing on the speculation of a journo or do they quote an industry source for this?
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Adam your mate must a salesman?s wet dream. I mean niggles or traits can turn up which weren?t evident in test drives but he?d need to be especially dozy to buy an car without noticing a cabin that he actively disliked.
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>>I?m sure that you can get a lot more Korean metal for a lot less money. <<
This is a ridiculous statement to make.
The vast majority of korean cars have been copies of old european and japanese cars for some time now so they have invested nothing in terms of quality or depth of engineering - hence they are cheap - cheap to own and cheap as a commodity.
They are now beginning to manage their own design processes. Korean cars have for some time been much less safe than their competitors - because they are old designs.
You have to understand what is meant by engineering and built in quality - and clearly you do not.
They have invested nothing in terms of engineering compared to european and japanese manufacturers.
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>>but speaking as someone who had a brand new and very unreliable car off the road for months in a relatively short period of ownership my advice would be that you?re out now and you must let go.<<
Forgive me but what do people do on a discussion forum such as this.
I cannot believe how personally some people take my comments - it is banter and chit chat isn't it ?
It does seem that as soon as anyone mentions a bad experience with a German brand on this website - the defence mechanisms kick in.
They are only cars - I learnt my lesson with the lack of VW quality and service.
I am doing no more than discussing it.
If you do not want to discuss with me again - don't respond - it's that simple.
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>>Almost every review I?ve read remarks on how differently these cars drive and I?ve yet to hear someone comment on how the cabins are all the same. HJ conclusion that the price difference is worth the difference rather proves the point.<<
Martin, I also disagree with you on this point - until the new TT, the point being made was that people were paying £9000 more for a few exquisite touches i.e the cars are the same. Only with the new model have audi done something different and engineered a better car.
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In the HJ quote that you used the price differential was in respect of the new TT, Golf and Leon which all share the same engine. Many of the people who whinge about VAG platform and engine sharing have already starting carping about the price differential and how can VAG justify this for what must be the same car. I made 2 remarks in this respect. Firstly that if the reviewers, including HJ, are to be believed it seems that the price differential is actually justified and secondly, regardles of which model we are discussing, if the target market believes that those exquisite touches are worth the extra money then it is their opinion that matters and nobody elses. Leica, Naim, Tag Heuer etc. attract the same criticism from those who fail to see the added value in their products, but they still have crammed order books and customer loyalty that Kodak, Sony and Sekonda would kill for.
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Well laargely people on these threads make constructive remarks or valid and supportable opinions. You, like many others with various manufacturers have been unlucky and have shared your experience but ranting and speculating every time you see VW mentioned about how you'll never again buy a VAG products brings nothing to the thread and as Ceasar remarked,it's just boring. I wasn't discussing this thread with you and from my POV there's nothing personal to take from it. You used an apparently speculative comment to kick off a vocal but pointless rant on an otherwise good natured thread and I merely suggested that you should get some perspective and move on.
Regarding the defence of VW, I think that the reaction is predominantly anti-VAG and often irrationally so. For example I can?t help but note that we recently had a chap whose Honda let him down in France and a horrid litany of incompetence ensued, largely the fault of the support services. We?ve also had many posts commenting on the patchy economy of the Accord. These are cracking cars and quite rightly other people have been supportive and commented on the how unlucky it all wasand how they hoped that matters would be resolved speedily. I also recall a chap recently mentioning a recurring problem with a Focus that he had to get rid of and rightly the response was how unlucky this was. Yet whenever the subject is a VAG vehicle and someone comes to some fantastical conclusion on the basis of speculation, something they read in a review or what they think of a plastic gearbox surround, then the floodgates open for more farcical criticism about how they?re all the same and they?re all dreadful. If it were the Passat that had patchy economy or had stranded it?s driver in France there would have been a lynch mob with pitchforks talking up a nonsensical storm about how VAG is in league with the devil himself. Where the criticism is valid and some of it is, then fair dos, but whenever one reads speculative waffle, pointless rants and farcical speculation from many posters who never even driven the cars they are slagging off then this needs to be pointed out.
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I tend to believe VWs are overrated, and therefore overpriced, but I'd buy a Skoda Octavia any day. IMO, VAG is one of the few European manufacturers that still produces decent cars, but they get little recognition. Motoring journalists seem to have a desire to supress decent cars, and rave about cr*p ones!
I couldn't care less what materials my car's interior was made from. If nothing breaks, and the engine keeps going without a single problem, I'm satisfied. The Toyota and the VW are both well out of my price range, but I recognise that they're both very good cars. If the only fault is the plastic used for the gear-lever gaiter, then I'm satisfied. On the other hand, many motoring journalists might be talking about such superficial things, because that's the most technical thing about the car that they understand.
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You're completely missing the point. By example I was attempting to draw out what on earth you meant by "buying on price", as taken as a bare statement it means that the potential purchaser is ignoring the engineering and quality investment that you allude to in favour of the biggest car car in the class with the biggest engine, most bells and whistles for the least money. That you get a lot more Korean metal for a lot less money is a statement of fact, but what it currently does not add up to, is a better car. I'm still no clearer on what your ?surely when people buy on price should they be getting a better product for a higher price? statement means.
Also you know nothing about my background so please refrain from stating what I do and do not understand.
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>>Leica, Naim, Tag Heuer etc. attract the same criticism from those who fail to see the added value in their products, but they still have crammed order books and customer loyalty that Kodak, Sony and Sekonda would kill for.<<
But that is exactly my point. I purchased a Naim Hi-Fi system because I believe it to be the best - it is different from any other Hi-Fi because as you say it has alot more added value.
I cannot buy a Naim hi-fi with another makers name on it like I can a Skoda, VW, SEAT.
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I'm still no clearer on what your ?surely when people buy on price should they be getting a better product for a higher price? statement means.
In simple terms it means you should get what you pay for i.e.
If you have 2 cars both out of the same parts bin - with the same chassis and spec and engines and air con parts etc etc then surley they should cost the same to buy.
My question is - if you took the badges of the cars and told someone that they are the same but car X is £2K more expensive than car Y I'm sure he will buy Y.
It is the same argument with the aygo, C1 and 107 - all the same car - the differentiator is customer service then.
All the reviews I read say Skoda give better service than VW so all I am saying is I cannot understand why people buy a VW.
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>>Also you know nothing about my background so please refrain from stating what I do and do not understand.<<
I do understand that You are obvioulsy a person qualified to tell people what they should get over and what they can and cannot post on a discussion forum.
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My qualification is that I?ve had appalling service with a very unreliable car. I could easily let it eat away at me and bang on relentlessly about it until my teeth drop out, but even with the best consumer products and their support you can be lucky or unlucky and once you?ve do all that you possibly can to remedy the situation then put it behind you and move on. I know enough to state that your rant was pointless, added nothing to a thread and that yes, you should get over it. I really don?t see the point in you doing otherwise but it?s whilst that?s my opinion, it?s your decision
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AFAICT your assertion and your bone of contention seems to be that VW charges different prices for numerous versions of what is ostensibly the same car. For this to be valid they would need to be the same vehicle with different badges but this is patently not the case as even HJ?s recent TT road test shows and so any conclusion based on this assertion is flawed. They share some fundamental components as do Naim CD players with other CD players, but the end result is certainly not the same and for those who desire and enjoy the finished article from Naim, VW, Honda or whatever brand it might be, they are happy to pay for the end result. They need nobody else?s approval to do so and I fail to see that any producer should apologize for addressing that demand. There is no wrong or right in this matter, it's a personal choice and surely that is one of the joys of the free market?
?In simple terms it means you should get what you pay for? ? what people ?pay for? is different in every situation and therefore this is another purely subjective statement and thus completely meaningless in it?s application here. Many people view cars as things with wheels and doors which get you from A to B and simply cannot conceive of why you would spend extra on a Honda or a VW or a Toyota when you could buy a Kia, Ssangyong, Proton which in all likelihood would do the job just as well, maybe not as stylishly or with the latest engineering underneath but it?s all they want. If you told them the price people pay for an Accord or VW they?d be aghast, you?d give them your cutting edge engineering speech and they?d wonder how much that would matter in getting them from A to B, a journey they?ve been doing for years in a shed on wheels. They would contend that you, and anyone else who pays more than the basic, were getting rammed. Apple PCs are no more reliable than Acer, I?ve had both dreadful and wonderful custom service from Apple, yet the premium is substantial. They largely use the same components so are they getting what they pay for? I could say no because I?ve had some bad experiences, but there are many positives about the product and who are you or I to decide what people are ultimately paying for?
Basically VAG is experiencing substantial sales growth in the UK and like many other car manufacturers has huge repeat business so by and large a majority of buyers are obviously getting what they want, what they pay for. When VAG actually start producing the catastrophic product that you think they currently do then they will reap what they sow, the business will die and you will finally be vindicated.
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Martin Sweeney.
I could not have put it better myself - an excellent assessments of people's different aspirations. As you say, some people want little more than dustbins on wheels to get them from A to B and they cannot understand why anyone else should want something different and be prepared to pay, what is to them, absurd prices for that privilege.
I think that if you peer into some people's cars (I know that I do) and look at the state of their interiors, then that will also tell you something about the owners and their choices.
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>>Leica, Naim, Tag Heuer etc. attract the same criticism from those who fail to see the added value in their products, but they still have crammed order books and customer loyalty that Kodak, Sony and Sekonda would kill for.<<
For Leica, the current alternative, in digital photography, is Panasonic. Would you pay extra for Leica over Panasonic?
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Machika, it?s never crossed my mind, so whilst I might not buy a DL3 over the Panny, I probably wouldn?t buy either; an R9 or M6, M8 would be another matter. My point would be that people who like Leica won?t think twice before buying the Leica, even the DL3, and as long as they purchase and ownership expectations are met then they?re perfectly entitled to buy whichever camera they want without having other people denigrate their choice or motivations.
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>>Adam your mate must a salesman’s wet dream. I mean niggles or traits can turn up which weren’t evident in test drives but he’d need to be especially dozy to buy an car without noticing a cabin that he actively disliked.<<
Yes - he is dozy. Whether mistakenly or not, he bought a VW thinking it was much better quality and probably dismissed the rattles because he had rose tinted specs. Admittedly the outside of the car looks very nice and he had his heart set on the Golf. Simple as really.
Personally, I would never buy a VW not so much because of quality issues (although that's one factor) but more because of the interiors. They just look boring and square. I'd probably get a Passat 4Motion if the interior looked half decent.
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There is one reason, and one reason only, why people should buy a VW.
That's depreciation -- a new VW will lose less money than most other cars.
The bit that gets me is people who buy a second-hand VW. What the hell is that all about?
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The bit that gets me is people who buy a second-hand VW. What the hell is that all about?
It's about throwing away money.
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There is one reason, and one reason only, why people should buy a VW. That's depreciation -- a new VW will lose less money than most other cars. The bit that gets me is people who buy a second-hand VW. What the hell is that all about?
Spanner in works time. IMHO The discount available on most other cars relative to the VW should more than cancel out any advantages in depreciation. Remember lies, damned lies and statistics.
Think thus - figures are made up but here goes. 2 cars both listed at £14,000, car A retains 45% of list after 3 years, car B say 32%. At point of purchase car A has a discount of only 5% (£700) so owner had paid £13,300 getting back £6300 3 years later. Cost in depreciation £7000.
Car B comes with a 17% discount so buyer pays £11620. sells 3 years later for £4480. Cost in depreciation £7140.
Factor in lower payments on finance etc over the period and that £140 difference is more than cancelled out. Yet reading the bare value retained percentage figures tells a different story. Buy wisley and ignore the statistics which can be made to prove whatever the hell you want. Just my tuppence worth.
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I will agree with you - it's better than the Mk2 Focus interior and I couldn't agree with you more about the majority of Jap car interiors - I don't care if they're solid - they look like they've been fashioned out of coal.
Not intending to be controversial, I don't dislike the interior of the new Focus and I find the seats much better than the Mk 1 Focus.
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Not controversial in the slightest M. If we all liked the same thing we'd all be driving round in some silver nondescript 1.6 mk1 Focus and the world would be a boring place!
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>>Basically VAG is experiencing substantial sales growth in the UK <<
Many thanks for your comments Martin, it has actually been a delight discussing this, although I do think you should NOT tell people what they can and cannot post - you know the customer sat rules - 1 bad experience and you tell 14 people - well I had 7 bad experiences so that = 7 * 14 = some big number.
On a serious note can you tell me where you got the data above regarding VW sales - it will help with some work I am doing.
Thanks in advance.
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I am not wanting to kick this discussion off again but I am interested in the "VAG is experiencing a substantial sales growth in the UK" statement as it will help me with a peice of work I am doing.
If MartinSweeney is out there could you please direct me to your source of info or can anyone else help.
Thanks in advance.
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Sorry it's me again - I ask the above Q because all the research I have done points towards the statement below.
And if Martin is correct (as I am sure he is) then it puts a different slant on my work.
"Volkswagen is launching a new sales and marketing offensive aimed at offsetting a potential decline in demand next year, after strong growth in the German market this year, according to Automobilwoche (Sept 2006)".
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Type, you read wrongly. At no time did I state what you could and could not post, but what I did do was tell you that I thought that your posting, springboarding as it did off a speculative quote and making wild assertions devoid of any supporting facts or evidence, didn?t actually tell us anything or add anything to the thread and just came across as a recurring bitter rant. What I also did is advise you to get move on from your experience, as much for your benefit as for this and future threads. Whether you take the advice is your decision and no longer my concern.
I noted the SMMT report on UK sales figures for August and YTD. All the VAG brands posted positive YTD growth, with SEAT and VW performing particularly strongly. The only other volume producers showing stronger growth were FIAT, MB and Mazda, with roughly 35%, 45% and 30% respectively of VW?s sales. I'll let you read the performance of other manufacturers for yourself. Various other sources confirm the sales growth worldwide.
I can only guess at the slant of the research you?ve done for your work piece but if your Automobilwoche quote is referring to VAG?s strong sale growth to date then that actually confirms my statement. It?s hard to tell without seeing the context but the remark about a potential decline may well be fact referring to a fall in overall car registration against the background of higher fuel prices and rising interest rates in Europe, and the wisdom of contingency planning for this possibility. The forecast may be that growth will continue albeit at a lower rate, or even stagnate. They may indeed be saying that only VAG sales face this potential decline and that competitors will increase growth, though I would have thought, with a relatively new and wide range of cars and some n the pipeline, that this would be difficult to forecast. Type, maybe you post the entire piece?
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