Hi Thisstle I have now received a total of eight traffic violations from my trip to Italy in October 2007. We arrived in Pisa at about noon the first offence occured on my way to the hotel 13:37, I could see no restrictions as many other cars were ciculating, the next four in Pisa were all in the same spot as the photo evidence that was provided shows a crack in the road and the car is in about the same spot every time, diferent times and dates, with one exception that two violation occured within the space of seven minutes in the same place (obviously lost). I received the other three on our trip to Florence by the same method of capture the the dreaded hidden cameras. The violations from Florence arrived in april this year, I spoke to the people and told them that I would not be paying them as my lawyer had said that the date exceeded 6months, I have not had any further contact from 'The Comune di Firenze' The ones from Pisa I do not intend to pay as the date to pay before the increase in fine exceeds 360 days the, this is the time as stated in the letter that the authorities can chase you for your hard earned brass generated by the hire companies.Were you in hire car? If you were that is why the found you. Incidentally the total fines for my four day trip total 810 euros
chris1955
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I have received a fine from Municipality of Pisa (not registered post) dated 29th August 2008. 'Circulating in restricted zone' on the 29th September 2007. Details provided by the car hire company. The letter gives me 60 days to pay Euro113,00 (or the fine is increased to Euro185.50). The 60 days would take me over the 360 days notice period to foreigners.
Should I ignore it, or appeal and on what basis, or pay?
Regards, Michael.
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This seems to be a quite common thing for foreign travellers into Pisa. I have just recived my ticket for our visit last summer with the now familiar "circulating in a restricted ..". I have checked the website which shows a picture of what I think is our hire car but no street scene to locate, just a digital imprint of the road name on the photo. The fine is for the offence dated 04/08/07 but my letter from the Commune d'Pisa is dated 29/09/08. This is wll over a year since the offence. Can someone please clarify what this 360 day rule is. Does this meen I don't have to pay? My fine like others seems to be 113 Euros or 185.50 after 60 days.
As I returned to Pisa briefly at the end of our holiday I'm worried we have more in the post from our friends the Italian police.
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I seem to have received exactly the same letter as Devon Tom (above) also dated 29 August. I was in Pisa in May 07. Again first notification although I did get hit with a minor fine (30 euros) a few months after I came back - never had any explanation from the hire co. I'd also like to clairify this 360 day rule. Clearly quite possible that the Italian police are having a clear out of a backlog of tickets. Tom did you hire through Europcar by any chance?
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"I'm worried we have more in the post from our friends the Italian police"
It is not the police who are sending you the tickets, but rather the "municipal police" who are call the "vigili urbani". They are employed by the local council and they are a bit like traffic wardens, apart from they can stop cars, fine motorists on the spot, carry guns, deal with noisy parties etc etc.
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Mark - Yes hired my car from Europcar from their pisa downtown branch. I was staying in a hotel in the road where the violation took place! I am informed if you can show you were registered in a hotel which is inside the zone you count as a resident. Problem is,13months on, proving this as I think all my documents went into the shredder back in easter.
Having checked some more, the 360 day rule means they have 360 days AFTER they identify you to serve the notice so it all depends when Europcar told them. I am appealing to the prefect department in a hope that they have records of hotel guests in August 2007. Like others, I fear I may have others in the post!!
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Hi,
I'm in the same situation form my trip to itally last summer. i now have 5 traffic offences amounting to nearly 1000 euros.
I dont dispute that the offences were mine, i am not looking to appeal, but i do think the laws are extreme.
Did you pay in the end, did anything come of it?
Most people on these forums seem to either advise that we pay out of moral obligation or fear, or that the authoritis might send debt collectors after you, but i cant find anyone writing that this has actually happened?
Advise would be helpful :-)
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There seems to be a sub-text to this post.
"I dont dispute that the offences were mine, i am not looking to appeal, but i do think the laws are extreme."
"Most people on these forums seem to either advise that we pay out of moral obligation or fear, or that the authoritis might send debt collectors after you, but i cant find anyone writing that this has actually happened?"
This perhaps translates as "I admit I've broken the law, but I don't like the penalties because they're too harsh. If I can convince myself no-one is coming after me I'll ignore it all."
I wonder what others think? (Five traffic - not parking - offences, leading to €1000 in fines.)
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I would be upset if I was prosecuted for the same offence 5 times. If the sign is not understood, then repeat offending should not simply be multiplied.
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He says it's five offences, not the same one five times.
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www.italiantourism.com/transp.html
Thanks for that, I'm driving to Italy at the end of the month, and while I was aware of the issue, I was expecting a far less significant sign, after reading the two strings.
It seems to me to be a fair sign, and certainly visible enough.
Maybe when you're driving in a foreign land you should research their roadsigns?
Would you forgive an Italian for driving into our congestion zone without paying?
And it's difficult to understand the details for me......
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Of course, that's my view on the validity of the fine.
Whether you pay it is another matter.
I've had two parking tickets in Italy, and never paid, and never been chased.
This does, however, predate the DVLC scam on revealing details to all and sundry.......
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As I understand it the DVLA can only share details if you are driving your own car, not a hire car.
I have had traffic violations notices like the others on here, dating from Sept 07. First lot came in February 08 and then the second lot came in Sept 08 - these looked like they were sent recorded delivery, but I didn't sign for them.
I'm ignoring them and as a consequence of receiving them, have avoided Italy for my last 2 holidays (when I would normally have gone there) and will not be skiing there for xmas (Italy's loss is Austria's gain)!! We are worried incase something happened to us at the airport arriving in Italy - although I doubt their systems are sophisticated enough!
In all I think these tickets so far have cost Italy's economy a few 1000 pounds from us as a family, but so far cost us nothing!
As for the comment about Italians and Congestion Charge - I did as much research as possible into hiring cars and travelling around Italy - and have done it for years with no problem, the fines not very well reported - even in guide books. In London you can't miss the signs for the Con charge and the red C's painted on the roads. Also, I doubt an italian would receive a bill 12 -18 months after they had committed the offence and I doubt even more that they would lose sleep and consider paying it!!!
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Another mug in the same boat I'm afraid,
Received notification from EMO ( European Municiaplity Outsourcing) last week dated 21/11 for driving in an unauthorised area in Florence, spoke to a nice lady at their office today about appealing but sounds like me nothing gets through the appeals procedure, they are determined to get their money one way or another & a lost appeal means a doubling of the fine if you lose it.
The photographic evidence is just a short of the back of the car & a number plate, there is no indication of an offence being committed, cant even tell were it is.
Secondly the "offence" took place in May 2007, so even with the 360 days rule I think this isstretching it a bit.
My question does anyone have any experience ogf going through the appeals procedure? Alternatively, would you ignore it or has anyone had good experiences with support from the DVLA on this?
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Back in 2005 I was driving back from Florence in a hire car to San Gimignano. ended up in the wrong lane on the toll road (short distance) and was in fact in the pre-pay "I have a tag lane". Not able to reverse so eventually let through.
Over 18 months later get a bill for the toll. And they assume I travelled a lot further. A few emails and all sorted for about 100% more than the toll should have been. So not a lot for being in the wrong. They wanted a lot more.
So I'd suggest contacting them. Different circumstance but you never know.
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For everything you need to know about traffic fines in Italy, look here: www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm That page seems to be updated quite frequently.
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>>That page seems to be updated quite frequently
Or you update it yourself quite frequently. Methinks we should be told...
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Nope - not my web site! But I live in Castellina in Chianti and can safely say that they've got the facts right. Whether you take their advice about paying is another matter . . . I have to pay fines since I live here. Like everyone else, I slow down when I see the speed cameras, and I make sure I stay well clear of the ZTLs in Florence and Sienna when I go there.
Edited by toscoman on 25/02/2009 at 15:58
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Excellent sit Tosco|
I'll go through it carefully when I've a moment.
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Later this Spring we were planning to drive down through France and possibly into Italy. No chance of entering Italy after reading this thread ..
Anyone ever woken up to find a `horse head` next to them? ;-) ;-)
Edited by oilrag on 26/02/2009 at 11:34
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Mods are as happy as we can be about the origin of the site.
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And yet another mug! I'm so furious with the injustice of it all. My (alleged) offence took place in June 2007 and I received their notice on 7 September 2008 (14 months later!!). Immediately I contacted them indicating I would be appealing on the grounds that I had no idea an offence had been committed on my visit to Pisa. I was led to understand that the fee of 113 euro would be payable if the appeal was unsuccessful and that the amount would only increase to 185 euro if 60 days elapsed without an appeal having been made. I was informed yesterday that my appeal has failed and they are now asking me to pay 271 euro!!! At no time did they ever warn me that this fine would DOUBLE if the appeal was lost. Has anyone been in a similar situation? I'm a widower on a very small pension and I really can't afford this amount. Can anyone please advise me.
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From what I understand the police have 360 days in which to issue a fine (Italian administration isn't known for its superb efficiency) and as it has taken them 14 months to contact you, suggest you write to them informing them of this and that you now consider the matter closed, adding that no further correspondence be entered into.
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Thank you for the advise. The 360 day ruling is brought in from the day the Car Rental Company pass on my personal details. Unfortunately I don't have this date. It could have been handed over many months after the 'violation'.
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Just got this from the Italian Consulate:-
according to the Italian Law a fine to a person resident abroad must be
notified within 1 year from the date of the traffic violation which
caused the fine. Besides, it must be notified in English and must
contain the indication of a mean of payment form abroad (for instance,
the international coordinates, IBAN code, of a bank account where the
fined person may pay the fine by international bank transfer).
Since the fine you have received does not satisfy the last 2 conditions
(it is in Italian and asks you to pay the fine with a postal order you
may use only in Post Offices in Italy), I have the pleasure to inform
you that you have not to pay anything. But remember you may not be so
lucky next time, thus try to drive safer!
Best regards,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Counsellor for Legal and Consular Affairs
Italian Embassy - London
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i hope this is in the rag tommorrow
it needs to be as its a scoop
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Hi
I went to Florence in Aug 2008. Parked in a spot which looked Ok to me. Even put money into one of those parking meters and displayed inside dash.
I headed off into Florence and spent most of the day there.
When I got back to the car there was a parking ticket?something about restricted zone.
I ignored it.
.*********
To my horror and amazement, another one has arrived this week, this time for CIRCULATED ON RAODS RESERVED TO OTHER VEHICLES AND INDICATED BY TRAFFIC SIGNS. It is from same authority in Florence. I logged on and all I get as a picture is the rear of the car and a number plate. It doesnt give me any real clue as to where this was on VIA SENESE. This time the fine id for 101 Euros and again it is from the Commune di Firenze.
I dont believe this. Is this some form of scam? Are Italian police/traffic authorities all bandits?
I called them today on 00 39 055 344 0390 and spoke to a lady who spoke reasonably good English who told me the authorities have 1 year to post thses notoces out and if I ignore it they will set a lawyer onto it and the fine doubles.
Tempted to ignore and tell them to go swivel on a toothpick but I have already paid one and doubtless they will find another photograph of me waiting at a traffic light and invent an offence for that too.
Any advice gratefully received.
Your truly
Xenophobic Anglophile.
Reply
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Hi
I also went to Florence in August 2008 and today received a ticket from the Commune di Firenze via European Municipal Outsourcing for exactly the same CIRCULATED ON ROADS RESERVED etc. And also on the Via Senese!
I have looked on google map and this is the SR2 main road into Florence from the south which ends at the big roundabout by the Bobolli Gardens before you get into the main city area. Surely this cannot all be restricted, does anyone know where these restrictions might be?
My girlfriend and I were staying at San Gimignano and went in and out of Florence a few times, including returning the car to the hire place, when roadworks and closed off roads turned the whole thing into a nightmare and we ended up driving around for nearly an hour trying to reach the place. So I am rather worried that this might just be the first of these things popping through the letterbox.
I also read that your car hire company can bill you around 50 euros on your card for providing the police with your details!
I don't want to make this a rant against Italian traffic regulations because one: I wouldn't be happy for foriegn drivers to visit here and think they could ignore our laws, and two: we are just as bad at milking the motorist - incidentally I think the Italians signpost their speed cameras more clearly than we do.
However I would like to make a few observations.
If you want to go around Tuscany, not just stay in Florence, you need a car and I would guess that the vast majority of visitors who hire cars do their level best to abide by all traffic regulations and drive as considerately and carefully as possible.
Out in the countryside in smaller villages and towns with less traffic it is much easier to slow down or stop to check signs. In busier places it is not always so easy, especially given the average Italian driver's propensity to lean on his horn at every available opportunity. Added to this a lot of Italian road signage is really muddled and confusing and keeping a close eye on other traffic is generally more important.
Nine months to issue a ticket! It will be difficult enough to make a defence, but after this length of time.
100 euros given the present exchange rate seems pretty excessive, especially as I cannot believe that I caused any major problems to anyone.
I am not sure what I am going to do from here. I have seen various advice from, ignore it, to just pay up.
I won't say I will never go to Italy again- I love the place. However it is obvious that I was a visitor who hired a car and made a minor mistake. I spent a few thousand euro's in their economy and now nine months later this. Surely there is a better way of handling this, or am I just being naive and should accept that today, everyone, everywhere is looking to screw every extra penny out of you.
I will be interested to hear any comments or advice, particularly regarding where I went wrong on the Via Senese.
Best wishes
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See earlier posts. They seem to have met the 12 month deadline but was the notice in comprehensible English and were you given a full IBAN (International Bank Account Number) thru which to pay the penalty? I have just Googled for them and they exist and don't seem like very nice people!
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A very full explanation here
tinyurl.com/ltoc8e
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Quote:...""I'd be very interested as I have a large number of violations in various EU countries stretching from parking to speeding all of which get thrown in the bin (at least the tickets they leave on my windscreen do) I've never heard a dickey bird through the post to my UK address. It will be a shame if I have to start paying for parking""
Exactly what overseas visitors do when they get ticketed here!
But in France, don't the Gendarmes take you to a cashpoint to get the money? I think that happened to some people I knew. If you don't have the money they detain you .
Edited by Sofa Spud on 01/06/2009 at 16:39
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I'm curious as to whether the people that haven't paid these tickets have had any more come of it? I've just had one 9 months after being there but am worried that there might be more on the way. The card I hired the car on is no longer valid, so the hire company wouldn't be able to pay it from that, so what, realistically, is the worse that can happen from this if I don't react to it and refuse to sign for any letters that come from Italy? TBH this has put me off going back to Italy anyway, driving certainly.
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"this has put me off going back to Italy anyway, driving certainly."
I doubt Italy will be overly-concerned if someone they deem to be a law-breaker (maybe a serial one!) doesn't go back there :-)
I imagine that at least the hire company would chase you for any debts that they incur. I would, if it was my business. If it's a UK credit card then there's more chance they will catch up with you. I think it's less likely that the authorities would pursue you, but your decision to not go back there is probably wise.
Not really sure why people expect to get away with offences abroad, we don't like it if we think foreigner visitors have done it here. (see various threads re E European lorry drivers and the like...)
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I think people are either ignorant of the law, which isn't an excuse, or are complaining of poor/inadequate signage which seems to make it nice earner for some cities. Do creit card companies have the authority to pay fines one's behalf on the request of a hire car company, and if they do, why are people being pursued by the debt collection arm of the city councils?
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Hi
My letter from the EUROPEAN MUNICIPALITY OUT SOURCING is for a NOTICE OF PAYMENT BEFORE THE NOTIFICATION sent by ordinary mail.
Does anyone know whether if you wait for a registered letter , which hopefully may not be sent, your fine will automatically be increased.
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Hi,
3 weeks ago I received a traffic violation fine for driving in a part of Pisa. The fine letter detailed it all in English, with details of paying it via an IBAN code etc, but the fine related to when I was in Italy in May 2008.
Reading your reply from the Counsellor for Legal and Consular affairs, Italian Embassy, London, this would indicate that it breaks their law and I don't have to pay it.
Do you think this is right, and can I check it myself with the Embassy, and do you have the contact details?
Thanks
Mega snip quote
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 22/11/2009 at 02:59
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FYI....
2 years on - still no more letters about this fine.
My advice - do what I did - cancel your credit card and ignore these - they are little more than a scam.
Went to Italy again in January (this time in my own car) no problems.
M'baby.
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