I am bothered by this thread. A friend (a lady) is thinking of buying a Mazda 2 or 3 secondhand from a dealership near where she lives in Richmond, and I went there with her the other day on a preliminary wander. I have said that as far as I know Mazdas are well made cars that ought to be reliable (she wants one because she thinks they have cute looks) although spares may cost a bit when needed. The dealership seemed OK from the two salesmen on duty but it was a Sunday and I don't feel I can tell without getting at least a glimpse of the service end of the operation.
They said they might be getting a 323 in that would be well within her budget. Any opinions?
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>They said they might be getting a 323 in that would be well within her budget. Any opinions?>
I've had a 323 T Diesel from new (2002) and all that's been replaced in 80k miles, apart from the usual oil and fuel filters, are 2 side light bulbs. The car has been used as a family taxi and has been faultless mechancially. As for the Mazda 3, I too am concerned about the posts here - quite disturbing in fact.
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This is an unfortunate tale having read it earlier on a mazda 3 owners site, especially the incompetence of the dealer in question.
Yes, mazda's current 1.6 does clatter on start up but it soon settles - mine does anyway but otherwise has been without problem for 18mths/19k miles and not used enough oil to bother topping up yet.
I would be interested to hear of any similar tales but assume (hope!) this is not a common occurence.
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My daughter has owned a Mazda 3 1.6 from new, which has now done 35k and quite frankly the engine at tick over is almost inaudible and does not burn any oil between oil changes.
In fact the car has been a paragon of reliability, but then she drives in a sympathetic manner and ran the car in strictly according to H.J`s guidelines (FAQ`s).
I would wholeheartedly recommend a new Mazda 3 or any other model, - they don`t feature so highly in the J.D. Power survey without good reason.!!!!
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I have now idea about piston slap but owned a Mazda 3 and a Mazda 323 before that. Again the Mazda 3 was almost inaudible at idle and reasonably quiet on the motorway. Mazda dealership was excellent and there were no reliability problems - just normal servicing on each car
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Hello again, Daiking,
I'm taking the time to respond again to you in particular because you wanted to be informed of any similar reports.
At the end of this current thread, you will note that a gentleman from the Czech Republic found my thread and responded accordingly. It transpired that he is the founder-member of the Czech Mazda forum, but that he had been running a similar query on other forums for some time (in fact, long before my own).
I contacted him directly via his Web-Master address and have since had the respective threads on his forum translated. I have to say, Daiking, that even I had no idea how common this issue really is. If Mazda themselves want to take the time to translate the many reports from Slovakia, Croatia, and here in CZ, they will recognise, instantly, the commonality between the issue I have described and those described in detail by the many, frustrated M3 owners on those forums.
Interestingly, I was also in touch with The International Mazda Forum (US) and had an almost instant reply from its Administrator (forum name, 'TheMan'). He was emphatic in his statement that he has NEVER, EVER heard of this issue on the M3 models in the US. However, he also stated that he was unimpressed by the incompetent 'repair' performed on my car, and the subsequent treatment received. He and one other from the US are convinced that the noise heard from the sound-files I sent to them is big-end/connecting-rod related, rather than piston-slap.
The American gentleman's advice was that I should contact Mazda Motor Munich (main EU Dist.) immediately, which I have just done. However, his opinions on the US Mazdas prompted me to question whether the models shipped/sold in the US are identical in every way to those shipped/sold in the UK/EU? Is that something that you are qualified to comment upon or confirm, Daiking?
Clearly, there must be differences, not least because of the history of concern on these Central-European forums. Noteably, though, the reception received by those who have written their complaints, is that all but one of their respective Mazda dealers have insisted that the noise is 'normal' and have done nothing about it. The one exception to this is a dealer in Zlin (Moravia) who, I am informed, is very concerned by the noise as two of his own vehicles are afflicted with the problem!
Your thoughts very welcome.
Kind regards,
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Sorry for not being able to reply before today, but your response interests me. Yes, the power isn't what I expected it to be and, in fact, there have been a couple of occasions when I've felt the car 'hesitate' when I put my foot down.
In truth, though, I don't know enough about sensor/ECU side of things to know if that's the cause.
I'll do some research! Many thanks.
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It might not be any help now though I would have insisted on a new car had those symptoms been apparent when the car was only a week old and certainly would not have accepted a short engine, a full engine change would have been the only other possible solution in my mind.
I say this now because it seems that at the early stages you were quite understanding and willing to accept the garage's proposed solutions and this very flexibility has backfired on you, could be worth taking this line in a letter to the Mazda UK MD.
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Hi, Cheddar,
The short answer is, been there, done that.
As stated in my original mail, I actually DID demand a new car or a refund in full as soon as I detected the noise. I assumed that the Sale of Goods Act (merchantable quality etc) would prevail. Not so. I was reliably informed that the Dealer has the right to repair the fault.
Indeed, if you look at the warranty conditions (I suspect, all other manufacturers, too), I was obliged to report the fault, and Mazda are then obliged to repair it (assuming I comply with warranty conditions, which I did).
Two, separate Expert Witness have told me that I did exactly the right thing in allowing the Mazda dealer to 'repair' the vehicle. They pointed out that, all too often, a frustrated or angry Owner will deny the repair, thereby allowing the Dealer the opportunity to off-load any consequential damage. The repair failed, and could well have been the end of us, too!
Regarding writing to Mazda's UK MD. I have a plethora of mails and exhanges, none of which amounted to anything more than a waste of our valuable time. Moreover, to date, I have sent two Recorded Delivery letters to Mazda's CEO in Japan, his name and address being supplied to me willingly by Mazda UK.
I had already suspected that Mazda's policy was simply to 'mend' bits as and when they break (in our experience, at least). But when the expected response did not arrive from their headquarters, I felt that my suspicions were correct.
It takes only a few, short lines to win over or maintain a customer's confidence. Not replying to a letter, especially one written so soon after buying a faulty item supplied by that CEO's company is, in my opinion, extremely unprofessional.
At the time of writing this mail, our car has just come out of its first service. It knocks worse than a diesel when cold, and I have just found out that the history relating to the engine change is 'missing' from Mazda's Digital Service Record (DSR). Doesn't inspire confidence, does it! Hardly suprising, though, when you bear in mind that when we arrived back in the UK on our last visit, and went straight to the dealer's premises to see the Technicians about the engine, we were told to 'wait half an hour, as they were on their tea-break'! Doesn't inspire confidence, does it?
Many thanks for your thoughts. I hope, sincerely, that you or any other Mazda owners do not fall victim to the same treatment.
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Amazing that in the internet age, Manufacturers seemingly act as though it were decades ago and no one will see the way they treat customers.
I had a situation very like this in the 70`s where I foolishly bought a new Fiat 126 right after its UK launch.
I can still remember the Fiat dealer telling me it would be a long wait for new transaxle internals and their seemingly disinterested arrogance in declining me a loan car.
It was off the road twice for weeks for transaxle parts and while in the dealership part of the plastic engine cover handle and a grommit from the parcel shelf were stolen.
With a shrug I was told that these could not be ordered. Not ordered at all that is although it was a current production model....
In the end I was forced to sell it at a big loss as the transaxle started to whine again just out of the one year warranty.
I was only a kid really and can remember their faces, although I think I have had `payback`over all these years by telling people about it.
Sure I buy Fiats again these days but I`m in an infinitely more powerful position now to `return the favour with extra` if I ever get any more of that.
Something for Mazda to reflect on perhaps as they read your troubles now on the forum and no doubt later, spread permanently across the world newsgroups.
I wish you well,
Regards
Something for manufacturers to reflect on
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I'm not surprised that the short engine swap is missing from the service record.
This also happened with my MG - there was no paperwork to go with any of the warranty work (such as new gearbox, rebuilt top end of engine, etc, etc, etc).
The difference I had with my MG dealer is that they did actually fix each problem as it was reported - though there was another problem following.
Personally, I think you are doing everything right.
I would probably report it to Watchdog and I would seek out another dealer. If they can fix it, then that would be a big black mark for the supplying dealer.
Have you not had any questionnaires from Mazda, asking how delighted you are with the car and dealer ? My dealer was very keen that I answered these very positively and went to some trouble to make sure I was happy (after my faulty MG, I bought a Mazda 6, which I was very happy with, for the short time I had it).
I think that dealers have a big problem fixing rogue cars in otherwise very reliable models. For my MG, the dealer had plenty of experience of poor build quality. I would guess that a rogue Mazda3 is possibly a new experience - though your dealer sounds capable of wrecking a good car :-(
Keep telling Mazda - and the dealer - how unhappy you are.
Good Luck.
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SteVee,
I hadn't really thought about using WatchDog, but it sounds like a good idea.
Yes, I did receive a questionnaire by post, not too long after taking delivery of the car. I was very honest in my judgement, giving top marks for sales, effort etc, but was equally honest in my assessment of the engine, and the way the problem was being handled by the dealer.
I posted it off and assumed that would be the end of it. However, not long before driving over to CZ, I received yet another of the same forms, advising that I had not returned the original questionnaire!
It's possible the original form got lost in the post, but I have no way of knowing. Anyway, I submitted the second form in exactly the same way, but didn't receive anything further.
I take your point re rogue dealers; a very apt description in my case.
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Best regards.
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Something for manufacturers to reflect on
Good of you. I'll keep you posted.
Best regards.
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The warranty conditions cannot override the SOGA, even though they often purport to do so, saved only from an offence by the usual get-out clause stating, soto voce, that the terms etc do not override statutory provisions. Take a look at HJ faq section, and speak to a lawyer, rather than a lay person re this. Expert witnesses may not be lawyers, indeed are unlikely to be as they are not expert in everything:)
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The warranty conditions cannot override the SOGA even though they often purport to do so saved only from an offence by the usual get-out clause stating soto voce that the terms etc do not override statutory provisions. Take a look at HJ faq section and speak to a lawyer rather than a lay person re this. Expert witnesses may not be lawyers indeed are unlikely to be as they are not expert in everything:)
I take your point. I have the details of a Solicitor recommended as being familiar with similar cases and am in the process of compiling a package for them now. I had hoped not to have to go down that road, but the way things are going, I don't see any alternative.
Sincere thanks for the advice.
Best regards.
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Indeed, it seems they want to go to the wire. No alternative, until they see the opposition massed on the brow of the hill:)
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In my past experience the media has also been a mighty lever
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Hi, Oil-Rag,
I think so, too. I contacted 'Which' some time ago and it was they who advised on the procedure I should follow.
I also mailed Milles Brignall (The Guardian) a few weeks ago, following his very interesting October article. In fact, it was he who suggested that I use the Honest John forum which, I must admit, I hadn't even considered until then. In his reply, Miles said that if I do go to court, he will put a story together around my case. I accepted, naturally.
I'm hoping it doesn't need to go that far, but if it does, then no doubt you'll read about it in due course.
Thanks again for the help and advice.
Best regards,
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Yes, in 'airing my experience' on this forum, my aim was to seek out those who had endured similar experiences.
I have, in writing, Mazda's own statement that a small number of other cases (piston-slap)' have revealed themselves in the UK. I had hoped to hear from that small number, in a bid to determine the severity and extent of the problem. Until I do, it's going to be an up-hill battle.
By the way, I scrutinised the FAQs suggested, and they really are helpful. In essence, they reinforce what I had believed to be correct from the outset, but I suppose I was swayed somewhat by the excuses received to date. No longer!
Many thanks for the help.
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The 1.6 chain cam engine in the Mazda 3 is the same basic 100PS 1.6 engine used in the Ford Focus II, so there are lots of them out there. Mossbridge's problem does not seem to be widespread (which, of course, does not mean that he does not have a problem with his car).
HJ
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The 1.6 chain cam engine in the Mazda 3 is the same basic 100PS 1.6 engine used in the Ford Focus II so there are lots of them out there. Mossbridge's problem does not seem to be widespread (which of course does not mean that he does not have a problem with his car). HJ
Thanks for your comment.
I have no doubt that Mazdas are, in general, a reliable car. We have, for the most part, always driven Honda, but wanted to stay with a Japanese manufacturer when we decided that a change in style was merited.
The problem in our car may well be restricted to a small number only, but it is by no means unique, HJ. Don't forget that the abysmal repair was made by a Mazda-appointed dealer who, we assume, employs Mazda-trained Technicians.
Equally, the engine noise was 'manufactured' by Mazda; it, in itself, was not caused by the dealer's Techs, although they did manage to almost destroy the car and us in the process.
I am of an engineering background and am well aware that no car can ever be expected to be perfect in every way. That aside, as purchasers of a brand-new car, it is not unreasonable to expect that car to function in accordance with the manufactuer's own claims (as a minimum).
In our opinion, what was an easily rectifiable problem initially could have been handled far better by the dealer concerned, but should, in no uncertain terms, be managed better by Mazda themselves even now. On that premise alone, we would not, under any circumstances, buy Mazda again.
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>>On that premise alone, we would not, under any circumstances, buy Mazda again.>>
Dont tell them that until after they have sorted it for you!
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Mmm. Not looking too hopeful at present, though, Cheddar.
The dealer who 'repaired' our car has literally just replied to my mail regarding the missing 'repair' from the DSR for my car. He informs me that Mazda UK have told him that there is no facility in the DSR for such information! (If not in the DSR, then where????)
Oddly, the second Mazda dealer who serviced our car just last week was very concerned that the information was missing, adding that it was essential not only to his calculation of distance covered since the engine transplant, but also to subsequent owners. Mazda policy? I wonder!
Thanks for the support.
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Significant that one dealer says no facility, and another says its vital, and destroys the stance of dealer A as to recordability. There's a phrase for that sort of repair: tick-box. More ammunition, if you can get it to evidential status.
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Perhaps contact Mazda Uk quoting dealer 2 and questioning the veracity of dealer 1, if it is found that they are wrong or have done something wrong (other than the misrouting of p/s pipes etc!) then it strengthens your case.
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Perhaps contact Mazda Uk quoting dealer 2 and questioning the veracity of dealer 1 if it is found that they are wrong or have done something wrong (other than the misrouting of p/s pipes etc!) then it strengthens your case.
A good point. I did exactly that yesterday, but received an Out of Office auto-reply from the Mazda person. I'll be interested to learn Mazda's policy on DSRs on his return.
Thanks again!
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The 1.6 chain cam engine in the Mazda 3 is the same basic 100PS 1.6 engine used in the Ford Focus II so there are lots of them out there. Mossbridge's problem does not seem to be widespread (which of course does not mean that he does not have a problem with his car). HJ
>>
I was not aware of this. Does that mean it is a Mazda or a Ford engine?
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Hi, Daiking,
I asked that question of Mazda in April of last year, and received the following (verbatim):
'I can confirm that Ford own 34% of Mazda Motor Corporation and the the engine fitted to your Mazda3 is a joint development between the two companies.'
I had no idea about the engine until after the problem began.
Best regards.
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Isn't the 1.6 Ford/Mazda engine an evolution of the 1.6 Zetec engine developed by Yamaha? Regardless.... given the huge quantities of this engine that are on the road I find it hard to believe both the original engine AND the replacement both suffer from Piston Slap. Too much of a coincidence.
Either :
(a) You are being over critical/paranoid, and the noise is in fact perfectly normal for this engine
- or
(b) The noise is being caused by something other than piston slap (and not by any component fitted in a short engine)
- or
(c) The dealer didn't actually replace the short engine (which may explain why no DSR record)
"Only fight the battles you can win" is a saying that springs to mind.
"Accept what you are powerless to change" is another!
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Good points there!
"Only fight the battles you can win" is a saying that springs to mind. "Accept what you are powerless to change" is another!
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Shaw, 1903.
Is another!
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I can't confirm whether the engine is Yamaha oriented or not, but do know enough about engines to guarantee that I am neither overly critical or paranoid. Equally, the noise is not 'normal' in any way.
It is possible that the noise is not piston-slap and is, in fact, big or small-end knock, but that's not for me to prove. Either way, however, the noise in this (the supposed) second engine is the same as that found by Mazda to be unacceptable in the first engine (hence Mada's decision to change it).
Whether the engine was actually changed by the dealer is something that will shortly be confirmed. I am advised to photograph the engine number on this, the second engine, to identify whether it was imprinted by hand or by machine. To that end, I mailed the first dealer, requesting the location of the Engne Number on the Mazda-3 Katano (petrol) engine. He replied to say that his Technician will contact me in due course.
By the way, if anyone out there can actually tell me where the Engine Number is located on the block, I would really appreciate it. I've tried with a mirror and lamp, but can't yet find it.
As for accepting battles I can't win, well, that just isn't me. And I certainly do not agree that I am 'powerless' to change this issue. I don't know if you're a family person, but if I was motoring down the road tomorrow and the resepective faulty piston/bores (or other) failed catastrophically and one of my family was harmed, I couldn't live with that. Thankfully, I'm not alone in my bid to implement change; change brings about improvement and with it, the advancement of technologies.
There is a serious fault in this car's engine which can only get worse over time, or which will fail completely. The first will increase oil consumption as the bores wear (with obvious effects on pullution and MOT acceptance criteria) and will reduce fuel economy. The second possible outcome doesn't bear thinking about.
No, I'm not about to accept anything less than that requested from the outset; viz a new car or our money (and costs) returned in full.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Sideways movement of the piston in the bore must occur to an extent in all piston engines. At what degree does it get to be termed piston-slap?
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Best of luck fella.
Like I said, it's either (a) an incredible co-incidence that your car has had two engines fitted out of the millions produced happen to have such a major fault, or (b) they didn't change the engine or (c) the noise is from elsewhere or (d) the noise is normal.
Law of averages say it's unlikely to be (a)
Without hearing it, I can't comment on (d), but you state with confidence that it's not normal
I'd be amazed if Mazda blatantly lied to you so (b) is unlikely
So my money is on (c).
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So my money is on (c).
It crossed my mind, too!
I'm happy to mail you some sample sound files if of interest. Believe me, you won't consider the noise to be normal under any circumstances, on any car.
Many thanks for your comments.
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It costs you nothing but your time to write about it and really you have the power not the manufacturer. Put it this way, who`s going to suffer most ultimately.
If all approaches fail there is `payback` via the media and so on.
I think you are going through a Gentlemanly, logical process. If the gloves ever have to come off though, I think you know the options.
Didn`t someone once put a Rover outside longbridge with a roof rack placard?
(Or was that me thinking about it with a Maestro before a call to the dealer telling them, the warranty issue was going in the local paper, the one they advertised in)
I had a phone call back from the dealer principal 10 minutes later asking what they had to do.
Negative publicity (legally checked) is the achilles heel of dealers and manufacturers.
Regards
Edited by oilrag on 26/01/2008 at 15:18
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Oil-Rag.
Absolutely! In fact, I've been advised to do something very similar.
Rightly or wrongly, though, it's just not in my nature to stand and rave outside a dealer's window. Equally, I know there must be others out there whose cars are (or are about to be) suffering the same engine problem, in which case, I would like to think I had helped rectify the problem in some way.
Best regards.
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Why not get an AA or RAC (or similar) inspection? They have experience of all makes/models of car and should be well qualified to give an opinion as to where the noise is coming from and whether it's acceptable and harmless or not.
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Good idea, that would remove any possible dealer/manufacturer bias.
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Good point. I'll contact one or both and query the procedure.
Many thanks.
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This is a different approach to anything I read so far in this thread. I?m quite happy for it to be dismissed as far-fetched, or even for it to be ridiculed outright.
It?s based on the fact that the noise a human ear hears, or an instrument measures, depends not just on the noise but also on what is between the point at which the noise is being produced and the ear/instrument. During my working lifetime I recall two occasions on which tests on a car were abandoned to prevent unnecessary further damage to the car. On the first occasion it was decided by the driver (I was the observer) that the gearbox was damaged because the gearbox noise heard in the car was significantly worse in 1st and 3rd than it was in 2nd and 4th ~ this was in the days of 4 speed-gearboxes. Back at the factory it was discovered that the gear-lever gaiter was split and that putting the lever into 1st or 3rd caused the split to open up. In 2nd and 4th the split closed up. The gearbox was perfectly OK. On the second occasion the engine noise had to be heard to be believed, and the reason for this was nothing more than a missing grommet in the bulkhead. The engine was perfectly OK.
I think whoopwhoop hit the nail on the head when he said ???. ?an incredible co-incidence that your car has had two engines fitted out of the millions produced happen to have such a major fault, ?
So ???. two different engines, the ear/instrument in the same place each time, and the same car in between the noise source and the noise receptor each time.
If you could get your ear directly next to the engine when the car was being driven you would be horrified at the noise. It?s only what?s in between the noise and your ear that makes the noise in the cabin acceptable.
Look for an open hole in the bulkhead, or missing insulation.
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How about a bonnet up utube video like this?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFM_TUXzGRw
Regards
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If the Mazda garage thought the original engine was wonky, why decry the ability of the OP to hear a continued non-standard racket at start-up? I have known diesels to quieten after warm-up but not a petrol engine. Objective external engineering advice would be helpful, but I suspect the OP has grasped that already:)
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but I suspect the OP has grasped that already:)
Nortones2,
Many thanks for that. As you say, I've grasped that already. I was about to reply to L'escargot's response when I read your comment. You've put into words what I think is the essential component missed.
The legal advice I have received thus far echoes that point exactly; i.e. Mazda considered the noise to be detrimental to the original engine, or would not have performed the repair. That this, the second engine is equally noisy (sometimes worse), is evidence to existence of the same problem (or the engine block was not changed, which I find hard to accept).
Equally important is that the noise is very evident OUTSIDE the car, and is clearly a loud metallic knock; this is not some annoying little rattle while I'm trying to listen to the radio etc. It is, in fact, much louder than an (old) diesel engine and can be heard many metres away from the car.
A respondent on the Mazda-3 UK forum requested submission of some sound recordings of the engine, which I gladly supplied. His responses are there to be read, but in short, he assured me that my engine sounds absolutely terrible compared to the slight knock he was concerned about on his car while it is idling.
The .wav files I sent were recorded MORE than 5 metres away from the car as it drove past and, if you heard it, you would think that the car was running without any oil in the engine at all. As already stated, sample files are available to anyone who is prepared to listen to them!
I agree with Oil-Rag's suggestion about the You-Tube publication. At the same time, while doing so will provide a video slant to the problem (e.g. is the noise really coming from my Mazda-3), the audio aspect is, I feel, the most important.
Many thanks for the support.
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Equally important is that the noise is very evident OUTSIDE the car .............. and >> can be heard many metres away from the car.
The .wav files I sent were recorded MORE than 5 metres away from the car as it drove past .........
This has not been mentioned before, so I feel justified in not having understood the problem. I wonder who else has been mislead.
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Don't think you were 'misled', you didn't ask the question before giving your reply, First post clearly stattes .wav files were available but didn't go into detail
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Don't think you were 'misled' .....
What I meant was that there had been no mention that the concern was about the noise as heard from outside the car. Therefore I naturally assumed that the reference point was inside the car. The vast majority of people assess noise levels from inside the car, not from outside.
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Hi, L'esgargot,
No worries about the confusion. I could, I suppose, have been more clear in my description. Truth is, I'm running this posting on two Mazda forums and, as I said, one of the respondeeson the other forum requested and then commented upon the .wav files. Anyone reading that thread will have had the advantage of his comments, and so would know that the awful noise we hear is not a figment of our imagination.
The noise can be heard to some extent inside the car, but is extremely prominent when heard from the outside. I take on board your scepticism, but would like to counter that by explaing that I do not complain easily or for nothing. Nor am I seeking a perfect, whisper-quite engine. I could live with a tick or a rattle, especially if it disappeared when hot. However, a downright hammer is unacceptable in any circumstances. We have been battling with Mazda for a year now, and believe me, I could be doing better things with my time!
I stated very early on that the chances of a second engine exhibiting the same noise bordered on the astronomical. So, I'm still working along one of the lines you suggested and have, just this moment, received a mail from Mazda UK advising on the location of the engine number. As soon as I am able, I will examine same and go from there.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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I posted the link above as it`s allegedly piston slap (for comparison) its the last few seconds that are interesting as it comes off cold start engine speed.
Thought it was a lawnmower at first (used to diesels) but it seems it may be a Toyota from the badge.
Does it sound like that Mossbridge?
Regards
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Hi, Oil-Rag,
I played your link earlier and thank you for the effort.
In answer to your last query, the engine on my car is far noisier. If I could play the files for you now, you would appreciate what I'm saying.
The noise only occurs when started from cold; starts out as a slight knock for the first 5 seconds or so, then becomes increasingly louder (as if oil wasn't being delivered). I'm not exaggerating when I say that if you were stood on the far side of a standard A-road, you would think you were listening to a diesel pulling away. The knock is at its loudest within a half-minute of starting from cold, as the car pulls away (i.e. when the engine is slightly loaded).
If I start the car from cold, apply the brakes and let out the clutch very slightly while in gear, the knock is really bad.
The Mazda specialist assured me that the noise he heard (on the original engine) was piston-slap. But I told him that it sounded crank-related to me (i.e. big or small-end knock). He insisted that it is piston-slap.
I tried to record the car today, to put on You-Tube, but for some reason, my phone will deliver video to my PC, but not the associatesd sound. So, it's going to be a case of buying a digital camcorder tomorrow, I think, then You-Tube.
Thanks for the help todate' your thoughts welcomed.
Best regards.
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AlastairM,
Acknowledged, with thanks. I suppose it would help if I could attach the files to this forum. Is that possible, I wonder?
By the way, for any other Mazda-3 1.6 petrol-engined owners, Mazda UK inform me that the Engine Number is located on the engine-block on the right-hand rear corner (when looking from the front of the car).
Mazda also tell me that their DSR system 'only records scheduled servicing and the annual body-check. There are no plans to include warranty repairs on the DSR'.
Many thanks.
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Mossbridge,
I am sorry to hear of your car problems. I have a couple of questions to better understand the issues:
[1] do you have a record of your original engine number?
[2] is the location of your engine number not detailed in your driver's handbook? It is in all mine.
[3] from your first post I assume you have been running the second knocking engine already for about 1 year. Is this correct?
Here is a very interesting 2002 article about piston slap from the respected Canadian Driver website (which I am sure you have seen already).
www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/020320.htm
The writer states that piston slap on engine start is becomming more common due to changes in engine design (seeking better fuel economy).
He quotes service information from General Motors which states: "A cold Piston knock which disappears in 1.5 minutes should be considered acceptable"
He goes on: "From experience, I have found that piston slap that occurs only during cold starts and lasts only for a minute or less causes no problems. Just don't place a load on the engine until the pistons have expanded and the clearance has been reduced.
"If you suspect your piston slap is excessive, then there is an easy method to locate which cylinder has the problem. Before starting the engine, remove one spark plug wire and short it to the engine block. When the engine is started, that cylinder has less pressure pushing the piston sideways. If the knock changes, or is gone, then that is the cylinder with the problem. If the knock is still there, try another cylinder at the next cold start. It takes a little time, but it is much better to locate where the problem is before disassembling the engine.
So is piston slap a problem? Not for most engines built in the last decade and if the noise is there only for a few seconds during cold start."
End Quote.
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Billy Whizz,
Sincere thanks for your detailed advice.
Yes, I do have a record of my original Engine Number (in the 'Log-Book'). As for it being in the hand-book, however, it's currently inaccessible, so I can't confirm same, I'm afraid (yet).
Yes, the replacement engine has been running for just coming up to a year.
I take your point regarding the issue of piston-slap. The problem is, as I'm sure you know, there are various schools of thought regarding the issue. I am aware, though, that (some) manufacturers have accepted 'defeat', shall we say when a sufficient number of owners eventually argued their respective cases in the courts (in the US).
As I mentioned earlier, had the noise been less pronounced, I might well have lived with it. But it's difficult to listen to a loud hammering noise and not be alarmed by the damage it is, so obviously, imparting on the cylinder walls.
I know full well that a car with piston-slap (if that is truly the issue in my engine) may run for a 100k miles. IT also may not. But, it will sound awful, inevitably will, burn oil, will lose power and increase fuel consumption. Plus, each trip I make will be pre-empted by the niggling concern that one or more of the pistons may fail at speed.
The most worrying aspect, though, is that the 'repairs' made by the first garage were so life-threatening as to remove any confidence whatsoever that the short-engine was, itself, re-built and installed correctly. After all, if the Mazda-trained Tech(s) concerned were able to route two hoses the wrong way, leave bolts loose and missing. how am I supposed to drive the car with any sense of peace of mind? Equally, what if it isn't piston-slap and there is an oil-flow issue?
I take your points and acknowledge that the piston-slap issue is arguable by some. At the end of the day, however, this is really about Mazda's view that the engine noise is 'normal', long after it (Mazda) had already deemed the noise unacceptable in the original engine.
Many thanks for your interest.
Regards.
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I wonder what might happen if you were to take the car to your Mazda dealer, but this time to the sales department. Offer it as a trade in on a new one, without mentioning the problem, and see if the Sales Manager pulls a face when he hears it and offers less money, or just takes it all in his stride.
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face when he hears it and offers less money or just takes it all in his stride.
Hello Dipstick,
I had to smile at that. Not a bad idea.
In the meantime, though, I'm in the process of recording a video/sound file and will, hopefully, have an example on You-Tube sometime this week (work permitting). I'll post a notice as and when and let Mazda and anyone else who is interested judge for themselves.
Thanks again.
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Agree re- piston slap on start up is more common, but by default (as mentioned in previous post) the tolerances on piston dimensions (shorter pistons) must be now smaller than with older designs of engines so failure rates maybe higher than with longer pistons. (Only evidence I have for this are the words of an experienced main dealer mechanic)
I suspect that oil feed to the pistons on start up is an influence. I admit not an engine expert, but is it possible for the oil feed in the head/valvegear to influence oil feed to the pistons? So that a short engine change may not solve the noise? Hopefully an expert on engine lubrication can give more detail.
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not solve the noise? Hopefully an expert on engine lubrication can give more detail.
So far, all but one of the Expert Witnesses who have responded to my query state categorically that piston-slap should never occur on any engine, but especially a new engine. Each of those I contacted are vetted UK Experts and have a proven history of forensic and/or mechanical failure analysis.
The 'odd one out', if you like, did not condone acceptance of piston-slap, merely that he knows people who have similar issues, but who are able to live with the noise as being part of their car.
I'm no expert, but you don't need to be a specialist to know that if you persistently impart force onto the same spot time after time throughout the operating range of the engine, it's got to be doing some damage. And, if there is a lubrication problem, that can only be worse.
As mentioned a moment ago, I'll be putting a recording on You-Tube very shortly. It may help put my complaint into perspective for those who may still be sceptical about the level of noise. Ultimately, though, I'm increasingly of the opinion that use of one of the said Experts is the only way in which this issue is going to be resolved.
Regards,
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>it possible for the oil feed in the head/valvegear to influence oil feed to the pistons?
Not usually. I am not familiar with this particular engine but normally oil feed to the crankshaft and to the cylinder wall spray jets (IF fitted) comes directly from the oil pump and does not go via the head. That is not to say the original garage have not bodged the engine rebuild as they seem to have done so badly with the PAS system.
>if you persistently impart force onto the same spot time after time throughout the operating range of the engine, it's got to be doing some damage.
Yes and no. On an atomic level damage is probably being done. However it is conceivable that the damage may be sufficiently small to be negligable; that the engine is still within manufacturer's specification when the design life of the engine is reached.
I would expect that Mazda have an internal standard to which they design their engines. In other words, that they engineer their engines to achieve a certain mileage before major work is required (such as re-boring). This might typically be 120,000 miles.
[1] How many miles already on this second engine?
Edited by Billy Whizz on 29/01/2008 at 19:27
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Another line you could take:
Find a similar age / mileage / spec Maz 3 on the dealers forecourt, listen to it and if it is fine propose that you swap. After if the dealer believes that there is nothing wrong with yours then they should be able to sell it. Only downside is that youwould be the 2nd owner.
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Hi, Cheddar,
I've sort of already been down that road in the sense that when I asked the second Mazda dealer if he could assure me that the engine was safe (after they corrected the bodge-up done by the first Mazda dealer), he refused point blank, saying that his Techs had no way of knowing what the first garage had done to the engine internals. On that premise, he would hardly be prepared to consider a swap.
I take your point, though, and I suppose a different dealer might be a better bet. However, bearing in mind that the digital history is (supposed to be) there at the dealer's finger-tips, I doubt I would get that far.
Thanks again for your advice to date. By the way, written to the Mazda UK MD today, will post it Rec Delivery tomorrow and see what comes back!
Best regards,
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I've sort of already been down that road in the sense that when I asked the second Mazda dealer if he could assure me that the engine was safe (after they corrected the bodge-up done by the first Mazda dealer) he refused point blank saying that his Techs had no way of knowing what the first garage had done to the engine internals. >>
Perhaps you could ask the first dealer to do a swap then?
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Billy Whizz,
Apologies for not being able to reply before now - renovation work!
Thanks for your thoughts, too. I do take your point, but still have to off-set what you're saying against the experience of many years' motoring using a variety of cars. Had that noise (or anything like it) revealed itself in one of those cars, or at any time over my life-time, then I might accept it.
Also, a new engine should, in my experience, be 'tight'. Above all, 'normal' expectations when buying a new car are that it should comply with the manufacturer's claims. My engine is not 'whisper quiet', nor do I need to 'wonder whether the engine has stopped when idling' as I read in one Mazda review!
Re the atomic level, I hear what you say, but there is sufficient evidence on the 'net to counter that; i.e. oil-burn, deformed/worn cylinders etc due directly to piston-slap forces.
Equally, as I mentioned previously, one of the Expert Witnesses does offer a forensic particulate analysis (of oil) and it was on that premise alone, that I asked the Service Manager to ensure that the oil was drained directly from the (scrupulously cleaned) sump into an aseptic 5-litre container during the car's first service. I'm told that particulate sizes can prove/disprove piston-slap.
Re the mileage, the second engine has (I think) done circa 8k. Because of the renovation work here, I still have lots of stuff in boxes, so not 100% sure.
Best regards,
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If the car has had a new short engine then shouldn't it have a different engine number ?
I've seen a couple of references to this in the thread, but nothing to confirm if the engine number is now different to that in the V5.
Mazda should have advised you to inform DVLA of the change and given you the new number.
That new number should also be on the service record.
I suspect that the engine number is the same as on the V5 - and that begs the question: what did the dealer really do when they said they swapped the block/crank/pistons etc ?
If they haven't replaced the bores and pistons then you will still have the original problem.
The handbook should say where the engine number is located.
For the Mazda 6, it's located high on the LH rear side of block.
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Hi SteVee,
You're absolutely right. At the time the engine was changed, I mailed Mazda to ask what I need do regarding the DVLA, but also because while in the Czech Rep (where we're currently renovating the house), I am required by law to be able to produce the 'Log-Book' on demand if stopped by the police.
I was assured by Mazda (still have all of the mails), that the Dealer is empowered to transpose the original engine number onto the new block. I then mailed back to say that I thought that a bit odd and just a little insecure. I was assured by Mazda that this was standard practice.
This week, after being prompted by the comments on this thread, I asked Mazda where the number was located, such that I could confirm the engine change. I found the number and, sure enough, it is a different block (a later series).
I then mailed the DVLA, to confirm my suspicions that all such changes MUST be notified to them. A Case Specialist has, just this afternoon, confirmed that the change of Engine Number should have been notified to them and that I now have to fill in the required forms, submit them and so forth.
I mailed Mazda, who again assured me that I was wrong, and that if the DVLA required proof of the change, they would arrange for the first dealer to submit a letter to the DVLA on my behalf.
I have, literally, just mailed Mazda to tell them that the offer of a letter would be of no consequence to the DVLA and that both they (Mazda) and the Dealer are clearly unaware of the legal requirements underlying such changes.
All of this now leaves me in the original situation; i.e. Mazda's replacement engine is also suffering the same piston-slap flaw, but which they contantly deny.
Many thanks for the advice to date. I'll keep you informed of Mazda's decision re my demand for a new car or my money back in full (plus costs to date).
Regards,
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Presumably if it has the same number it is the same engine block? Otherwise why do they have a different number? Which in some cases is physically stamped into the metal, or otherwise made very difficult to change, for precisely the reason that they are not intended to be changed. How odd that a "replacement" engine block, which happens to have the same number as the previous one, should also happen to suffer from the same very unusual problem. Not sure if you have any sort of legal/AA/RAC cover but I would feel inclined to change gear here and be a little more challenging. I have every sympathy with the situation you find yourself in and hope it is quickly resolved to your satisfaction.
MGs
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Hi MGspannerman,
Many thanks for your vote of confidence.
It seems your response pre-empted my reply to Stevee; i.e. I now know that the number is different etc. That said, I've just had a reply from Mazda UK, apologising for not knowing that the DVLA is obliged to be informed of such major changes!
In my mail to Mazda, I pointed out that such notifications should be automatic, such that following a major change, the Dealer informs the Owner that the repairs made require the Owner to notify the DVLA. I thought that the above procedure was already standard knowledge?
I've just noticed the posting from Happy-007 and am about to reply. However, the files he's attached demonstrate an engine noise which is EXACTLY the same as that on my car.
Mazda's last mail to me (of today) offers nothing more than a side-by-side test by the dealer concerned, with one of Mazda's own Engineers present. I can't comply with that until I return to the UK in a few weeks' time, but have accepted the challenge. However, I've made clear that their examination will only be made after the car has been inspected and commented upon by our chosen Expert Witness.
Sincere thanks again for your interest.
Kind regards,
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