Government announces it wants motorists to be green.
Government increases taxes on fuel to discourage usage.
Government raises VED on cars with high levels of CO2.
Government is surprised and shocked when sales of cars fall.
Government has an economic depression caused by out of control bank lending.
Government lends money so consumers can buy more cars.
Perhaps I am being dense but somewhere there are several illogicaltiies if I could only spot them.
Edited by madf on 26/01/2009 at 15:32
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I thought the point was that because the banks won't lend to car manufacturers to fund PCPs at sensible interest rates, Mandy was fixing it for the manufacturers to get their money direct from the Bank of England at base rate. That's a bit different from lending to the manufacturers to fund production of fields of cars no one wants. And, because of EC rules, it will have to apply to all makes and models of cars, not just those built in the UK.
HJ
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If people had not borrowed so much to buy expensive cars we wouldn't be in the mess we are.
If Mandy and his useless pals start interfering in car firms, we will be offered Princesses, Marinas and Allegros again.
Gordon Brown wished Derby County's new manager, Nigel Clough, good luck on his appointment; Derby have not won since. Brown was photoed with the Spurs manager and look what a mess they are in.
Everything Brown touches goes belly up.
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I'm beginning to wonder whether it's costing the taxpayer more trying to keep the economy breathing than it is to just let failing businesses.....well, fail.
That may sound a bit callous for those invovled in failing industry but none of this bail-out spending is actually creating any new jobs or opportunities.
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I'm going to make a fortune when I invent a device that lets people punch politicians in the face over the internet. Or at Prime Minister's questions: "Push the red button now..."
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Well, Mandy more than most, knows how to engineer dodgy loans!
Vide his own mortgage deals!
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I'm beginning to wonder whether it's costing the taxpayer more trying to keep the economy breathing than it is to just let failing businesses.....well fail. That may sound a bit callous for those invovled in failing industry but none of this bail-out spending is actually creating any new jobs or opportunities.
Mortgage the country to the hilt and saddle it with the kind of debt that we will be paying for the rest of our lives, or let the whole lot slide down the toilet, wait for it to hit the bottom, and then see where we stand.
Now that's the kind of gamble only a professional gambler takes on.
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According to an article in a rival paper today, the mess was caused by financial institutions raising multiple debts via ingenious "products". The amount tied up in intra-institutional shenanigans is rather more than the "consumer" end, even though there are issues re personal indebtedness. So, the banks etc are very reluctant to do other than hoard. Can't see what Brown has to do with it: if he interfered with the banks before a crash, imagine the cries of outrage. Its a lot more to do with the red braces brigade.
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Going back to the OP, I wonder if its only going to be available for cars that are built in the UK? Otherwise it rather defeats the object of protecting jobs in this country...
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HJ has hit the nail on the head - banks aren't lending so Mandy wants to cut them out of the car buying process.
Not everyone has overstretched themselves and there are still buyers out there with good credit ratings who want to buy new vehicles, but they can't get loans.
Edited by daveyjp on 26/01/2009 at 20:02
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there are still buyers out there with good credit ratings who want to buy new vehicles, >> but they can't get loans.
As mentioned in another thread, I had this confirmed by a sales manager friend at a major Oxfordshire VW dealer.
They are turning punters away who this time last year would have secured finance at a fair rate and bought the car they wanted. People just can't get credit right now. If they are accepted, the rate or deposit requirement is prohibitive.
Edited by DP on 26/01/2009 at 20:25
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People just can't get credit right now. If they are accepted the rate or deposit requirement is prohibitive.
If they cant afford the deposit they cant afford the car. It was massive credit which helped us into this mess. What happened to save and buy?
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I thought the point was that because the banks won't lend to car manufacturers to fund PCPs at sensible interest rates Mandy was fixing it for the manufacturers to get their money direct from the Bank of England at base rate.
It's a form of subsidy.
There are two elements of risk in PCP finance: the chance of the buyer defaulting, and the possibility that final value has been overestimated. In a depression (which is what we are now entering), both those risks are heightened, so the interest rate needs to be well above base rate.
I can see the problem with credit unavailability, but lending to this business at base rate is a subsidy which exposes the taxpayer to yet more squillions of capital risk. It also seems perverse to direct credit to an industry whose product generates CO2, rather than to something like home energy efficiency improvements which would reduce it.
I suspect that the rationale for this mostly consists of a map of marginal Labour seats (e.g. Swindon), despite the fact that most of the subsidy will help importers (because they hold most of the market).
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If this gov't waasn't charging the banks 12% interest on the bail out money the banks would be more interested in lending it than trying to hoard to pay back that loan.
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>>>Can't see what Brown has to do with it:
Brown has got everything to do with it, he has been in charge of our finances for the last 12 years.
It was Brown who took all the plaudits when things were going well, but now things have gone badly it is the banks/the Yanks/ Mrs Thatcher/ global warming and everyone else's fault, except the man who "saved the world".
Pass the sick bag, Alice. (I have pinched that from the late John Junor)
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If it was only the UK in trouble, I'd be forced to agree. But take a look at Germany, France, Japan and the USA. Did GB ruin their economies? No. Not possible, even if you might wish it. I think the man (no friend of mine) is not the perpetrator of a global problem. Some perspective needed on this.
Edited by nortones2 on 27/01/2009 at 19:14
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So the lack of UK bank regulation wasnt the goverments fault then.
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No. It was the banks fault. They were and are, well rewarded for success, but perhaps too calibrated in favour of the short term. But, until the system fails, there are few opportunities to introduce a regime markedly different from the monetarists "light touch" regulation. This gained centrist and right wing credence over 20 years ago. Difficult to argue against, in the light of apparent success from the gleaming towers of finance. Why should there be, when there was no evidence of an impending failure? I don't recall a media campaign, much less Her Majesties Opposition making a fuss. However, they all prefer some form of regulation (and subsidy to car makers as well as others) now, even though it chokes them:)
Edited by nortones2 on 27/01/2009 at 19:48
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Isn't the main problem the "psychological" aspect at the moment?
Perhaps it's just me but it seems that even with interest free offers, some incredible discounts etc, that people are still reluctant to buy a car because they fear the future - might I lose my job?, I'm getting little return on savings, value of my house is dropping like a stone, Robert Peston predicting doom and gloom, that plumetting red arrow that is the background to BBC news, the impression that the gov has given away billions to the banks with no effect, the daily "this will help" measures which have no effect etc, etc, etc.
I had my local Cit dealer ring me tonight, offered me a very low mileage ex-dem new style Berlingo with all the extras - £9000. I said no - mainly because I am apprehensive about the future (and maybe a bit because it might be £8000 in 6 months!).
I get the impression that people are just "holding back" to see how things turn out - no amount of "cheap money" will cure that - it requires an upturn in peoples confidence in the future - all IMHO of course.
Hope you are all coping and keeping jobs.
Phil
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Personally I think Lord Hunt summed it up nicely:-
"Lord Hunt of Wirral said that the package wasn't enough. He said: 'After years of persecuting the motorist, ministers now offer a range of placebos to an industry facing the worst crisis it has ever faced."
I actually think the above statement is true and people are now looking at alternative forms of car ownership and regardless of how Green Brown thinks he is (after approving a third runway) if we all start using less fuel then he has to start thinking where he is going to get the additional tax revenue to fund the Northern Rock bonuses.
Once again you can just see how dis-jointed this government is in it's thinking.
The other thing they might need to realise is that you can lend the car makers as much money as you want to go on making more cars, but if people do not feel confident enough to buy them they will be lending much more very soon. As philw says it is a confidence thing and the fact that we don't know which way the wind will blow for car ownership in the future in this country.
I also read that the UNITE union are stating that this package is tiny compares to what European governments are doing for their respective car industries.
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Good point PhilW. If the car industry (and other real industries, not just the flim-flam financiers and retailers) had confidence the Govt would support them to get out of this trough, then the gloom would dissipate. Not on the showing so far. We can only hope the US and others will clear the fog. After all, we are only bit players....
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bit players !! bit players !! - are you serious - we are saving the world from economic catastrophe - we led the way in cutting VAT by 2.5% - our policies are de-valuing sterling - all as a sacrifice we make to the rest of the world as we show financial leadership...... :-)
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bit players !! bit players !! >>
Brown and his cronies probably think we still have an empire.
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My understanding of car finance at present is that the lenders have the money,its just that people with not quite so good credit scores are getting knocked back.Most people that would have got regular car finance will still get it.
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Banks are still lending to people who can afford to pay the money back - I work for one of the UKs biggest banks personal lending unit and we have no shortage of customers applying and no shortage of loans being offered.
People with bad debt and are 'serial' refinancers may be struggling as there are conditions applied and they cant just pay off an overdraft/credit card/store card etc and then expect to run it back up and have the loan as well.
Good customers who pass a fairly basic affordability test on their current lending/outgoings and income and have a reasonable credit score will still get credit.
I have no idea though why this government is trying to get people to borrow money that is going to stretch them and inevitably cause a bigger mess than we are currently in. Outgoings cannot outstrip income forever despite what Gordon thinks - its worrying, although not surprising when you think he ran the economy with these rules for years on end....
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People with bad debt and are 'serial' refinancers may be struggling as there are conditions applied and they cant just pay off an overdraft/credit card/store card etc and then expect to run it back up and have the loan as well.
Blimey, good old fashioned lending, eh! When I started out in one of the banks thats how it was... then it all went haywire in the 90s... so some common sense has returned and now you're getting criticised for it by the very people who criticised you making credit too easy... no win situation... I'm glad I'm out of banking!
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You are all right? You are all wrong? In the longer term...not 2-3 years but 20-30-40-50 plus plus plus and way b e y o n d.................The capitalist system of 'Growth' and concreting over fields CANNOT work. Where is the end game? You cannot mine the metal, make a washing machine, allow it to break down. Mine the metal for a replacement part (that a repair could deal with) again and again and again. THEN...Mrs. Woman wants a 'New One', cos it has this feature etc etc etc. and the original goes off to the dump or recycling thingy (that it is now known as) which means paying nothing more than lip service to the requirement of recycling cos it costs too much and so the ball goes round and round and round. Nobody wants the original machine (I know before you lot start!!) whether it be a deluxe virtually unused pram, cooker, fridge, stereo, de dum de dum de dum..They all want..yes WANT..............NEW. You CANNOT give the stuff away except to a very few who have brains or those that are just leaches. It cannot be done. A huge reality check has to happen in Western Life.........or............Another war is the ONLY thing that will sort it out and then, unfortunately......it WILL start all over again.
I am 50 years of age. Self emp since 17 YO. Knackered knees, knackered back, generally worn out. Bills to pay. No work means no food. Days off sick!! no no. Why for heavens sake are we paying young men NOT to work? Make them do something for their supper for heavens sake. Let them pick up the rubbish that gets thrown out of the Corsa, 206, Capri (recently). No I am not kidding, and by senior persons I know. Blimey! it is getting difficult moderating my language. I hope YOU mods are grateful!!
If this current financial situation doesn't bring it home, and I firmly believe that it won't, then we are in the es aich one tee up to our necks.
DON'T JUST SIT THERE AND THINK THIS WILL GO AWAY COS IT WON'T. AND IF THE MANDY'S OF THIS WORLD PRODUCE A SHORT TERM PANACEA THEN YOU (WE) WILL BE PAYING FOR EVEN LONGER THAN THE TWENTY TO THIRTY YEARS I FORECAST. (MINIMUM)
I am ONLY 50. Still remember the tin bath in front of the coal fire. ONE dustbin (half) full of rubbish. Time to enjoy life a little, no jollying jobs to pay the tax and on and on and on. We have (progressed) too far too fast and to the benefit of the few.
It ain't rocket science and there are a few here who know it.
All the very best to all................MD
Edited by Webmaster on 28/01/2009 at 20:51
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>>Why for heavens sake are we paying young men NOT to work? Make them do something for their supper for heavens sake. Let them pick up the rubbish that gets thrown out of the Corsa, 206, Capri (recently). <<
I don't know about the others Martin but I do know that is exactly what Toyota are doing with some of their staff - paying them to carry out work in the community whilst there is little work on in the factories. It is when it gets difficult that strong ethical companies show their true colours and I think Toyota are doing that.
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Good post Martin, agree entirely.
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Another very small point is that it is Mandelson who is putting this forward in the House of "Lords". He has had to resign twice (once because of a £373,000 interest free loan for a house - pehaps he should have bought a few cars). Not to mention the 2006 purchase of a property costing 16 times his income and the Deripaska affair.
Why is he a "Lord"? Is this the quality of today's peers, Lords and Barons? I think I would rather have the old fuddy-duddy blokes who inherited titles rather than these sleazebags appointed by the Gov. Why is he "Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform"? Does he inspire confidence in you?
I wouldn't buy a second hand car from him let alone trust him to revitalise the car industry.
What does he know about industry? Mind you, what do any modern politicians know of ordinary workaday life? They are almost without exception professional politicians.
Rant over, sorry - just frustrated at the incredible amounts of money being thrown away by people who seem to have daily knee jerk reactions - I fear for the car industry, I fear for all industry and I fear for the prospects of all ordinary people while these feather-bedded-jobs-for-life-gold-plated-pension-politicians-bankers-h
edgefund-manager-financiers
muck it up for the rest of us.
Edited by Honestjohn on 28/01/2009 at 06:29
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car industry I fear for all industry and I fear for the prospects of all ordinary people while these feather-bedded-jobs-for-life-gold-plated-pension-politicians-bankers-h edgefund-manager-financiers muck it up for the rest of us.
You so very nearly got that last line right my friend.
Best reg's as ever.....MD
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"You so very nearly got that last line right my friend."
Always remember the swear filter!!
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Martin Devon and PhilW have got it perfectly right. Now why can't politicians see that?
While Mandy is busy trying to bail out the motoring industry, he has forgotten to tell Darling and Angela Eagle [the car hating twerp in the Treasury] to stop dreaming up ways to penalise the motorist.
www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/tags/angela-eagle/
Eagle thinks that she is doing the world a favour with her anti-car ideas as it will stop global warming. Meanwhile flash-Gordon having just saved the world is busy announcing plans for a 3rd runway at Heathrow to undo Eagle's curb on car ownership, and thereby hasten the destruction of the planet due to global warming. Too many cars on the road, says Eagle, so let us have congestion charging. Mandy says not enough new ones being sold, so let us give subsidies.
Who wants to buy a new car when you don't know whether you will be able to afford the repayments, or the fuel when the oil price goes up and down faster than the proverbial knickers, or VED is up one day and down another depending on which side of the bed Eagle gets out of.
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Most politicians it seems are just ordinary folk. Very ordinary in fact. How many of them have had to turn tuppence into threepence? And if they have been in business, how well did they do and if they did well, why didn't they stick at it. We want winners, Statesmen, not losers and compliant twerps fishing for compliments and pats on the back. I don't want to read or hear (in mainstream news) or indeed anywhere, of David cammything riding his bike up a one way street the wrong way. that is NOT news, it is drivel for the uneducated masses. I wouldn't mind hearing of one of our Statesmen racing to No.10 in a fast car cos something critical needed his attention and NOW.
Major adjustment to the way we live and derive life from this planet is required or indeed we are doomed at the rate we breed AND I firmly believe if that adjustment does not take place (which it won't) then that time is going to arrive sooner than you think. I am by no means clever, just a hard working survivor, but it must be clear to anyone with half a brain that I am correct. I stated when I was Eighteen that if I lived to three score years and ten then not much of what we know will exist. Note those words cos we are doing a damn fine job of it so far.
Good morning all..................MD
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Snip! No longer relevant to the discussion as was a question regarding an edit of a post - move along folks, nothing to see here
Edited by Webmaster on 28/01/2009 at 20:53
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WW2 was enough. The British middle classes now prefer to believe that they will be looked after and things will be all right in the end rather than make a fuss. That is why they are such suckers for exploitation by vilification of the motor car for its emissions or for the alleged dangers it poses to society. They are their own worst enemy, and end up with the government they deserve.
I'm deeply suspicious of how Mandy's loan package has worked out. Instead of finding a way to offer bank rate based loans to car buyers, it seems to be partially EU funding to keep factories in business when they cannot sell their products.
Rather than encouraging low interest rate loans to get things moving again, and competing with the banks, this policy is actually supporting the banks in keeping interest rates high and the economy stalled.
And would someone please tell Mandy that his irritatingly fake posh accent gives him no credibility at all. If he's a labour peer, why can't he talk like one?
HJ
Edited by Honestjohn on 28/01/2009 at 06:49
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"And would someone please tell Mandy that his irritatingly fake posh accent gives him no
credibility at all. If he's a labour peer why can't he talk like one?"
I'll tell him tomorrow;)
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