I rather like the 9-3 saloon, I love the interior.
Does the current climate mean that if things get really bad and we loose alot of car makers, will new ones emerge??
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Look east my boy; look east.
They are getting ready and will strike when the competition is at its lowest ebb.
Too many assemblers making the wrong cars (for various reasons). The day of the cheap and cheerful basic car is about to return !
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If we do it will be rubbish from China and India with old floor pans dressed up in what they think are top notch skins with slightly re worked engines and gear boxes from the past.
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Maybe it is for the best is these companies from the GM/Ford 'portfolio' go bust and get 'rescued' by their own countries again instead of Yanks.
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>>get 'rescued' by their own countries again instead of Yanks.
As long as Vauxhall stay under Opel control, that'll be fine by me.
Imagine what might happen if Vauxhall deign came back to the UK - shudder!
HD Viva anyone?
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"Too much power for the front wheel drive. Much preferred the BMW 330d which followed it."
I remember reading somewhere that Saabs engineeer's themselves thought that 200 bhp was the realistic max for FWD.
It's not just about the driving though, it's about image too. When J Clarkson tested the Aero on Top Gear he referred to it as " a car for architects and graphic designers" ( he also liked it BTW) As a member of one of those professions maybe its understatedness appeals to me.
As opposed to flash BMW's, which I tend to think of as slightly lacking in taste. Horses for courses I suppose, although I always feel that I'd like a BMW one day, just to see if the hype matches the reality.
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The Swedish Government are in no state to bail-out Saab or anything else.
They will need all their money to prop-up their banks who have been on a careless lending splurge to eastern europe tinyurl.com/aavxj6
MVP
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Let's wait 10 days and find out!
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Yes and can we all stop speculating in the meantime? It's especially unhelpful for British workers at Vauxhall when people start extrapolating the Saab concerns to unfounded claims that Vauxhall/Opel is going under too...
Sure GM is in trouble and there will be jobs lost and factories shut, but there are no plans yet for any of the European plants, including Saab.
We'll just have to wait and see.
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So what did SAAB bring to the automotive party?
Turbos. ( they blew then and they blow now)
A switch to turn out the dash lights. (why?)
The ignition key fitted to the gear lever.
And thats it.
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Oh, and you've missed out having three washer jets across the bonnet instead of the more usual two.
How could you forget that too? ;)
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Oh and you've missed out having three washer jets across the bonnet instead of the more usual two. How could you forget that too? ;)
It must have been blocked
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Ooh, I think that's a little harsh, AE.
The classic Saabs were superbly engineered, and probably the only turbo cars in the 80's that were reliable long term / high mileage ownership prospects.
I read a buyer's guide for the 900 turbo a while ago which featured an existing owner of a largely original 180,000 miler who would still run it on trackdays a few times a year.
On a more shallow level, I also think they still look great - that part hasn't changed under GM either. The current 9-3 is a very pretty car. The classic 900 Turbo, in black preferably, with those anthracite three spoke alloys is a joy to behold IMO.
Edited by DP on 19/02/2009 at 13:31
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.. It's especially unhelpful for British workers at Vauxhall when people start extrapolating the Saab concerns to unfounded claims that Vauxhall/Opel is going under too... >>
see
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=72...2
Vauxhall - GM seeks partner for ailing Vauxhall
Edited by jbif on 19/02/2009 at 13:03
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Vauxhall does not exist. They are rebranded Opels. There would be no change at all if we simply did the Irish thing of buying RHD Opels.
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GM brought some impressive benefits to SAAB:
Dame Edna glasses on 05+ 9-5s. Luverly.
A V6 turbo with almost identical performance and much worse fuel consumption than the 4-cylinder Aero turbos. The yanks don't like 4-cyl cars so this was a lame attempt to make a high power FWD car even more nose-heavy in the quest for "refinement".
No great loss.
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Morris Minors had a switch to turn off the speedo lights many years before Saab
I know, I spent hours one day trying to figure out why the bulb was out ;(
Edited by MVP on 19/02/2009 at 13:58
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"However, although GM Europe said it is willing to consider partnerships for Vauxhall, it insisted there are no immediate plans to sell the car maker. "
They're not about to be sold, let alone go bust!
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Lets be clear here
1/ I dont know how the various parts of GM are legally formed but i dont think they can "go bust" without bringing down the parent company.
2/ They can close an operation down for sure.
3/ They can sell an operation - or try they wont get a buyer.
What GM are saying is "without some local support we are thinking of shutting down your local opel/vauxhall/saab company/factory"
1. could be wrong of course.
2 and 3 are true and distinctly possible
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That's exactly right. Although GM did talk about breaking Saab off as a separate operation and leaving it to fend for itself. That could either be the making or end of Saab, depending on if anyone steps up and partners them.
How feasible that is when Saab is little more than one factory and a small administrative office in Sweden, I don't know. Everything else is shared with GM Europe.
I'm not even sure Saab have their own engineers any more.
I think what it comes down to is GM wanting to shut down the factory in Trollhatten, or get some serious financial support in keeping it running. Either way, it's unlikely to be the end of Saab. Same if Ellesemere Port/Luton are shut down here, Vauxhall isn't going away any time soon.
Edited by TheOilBurner on 19/02/2009 at 15:24
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.. I think what it comes down to is GM wanting to shut down the factory in Trollhatten, ... >>
AFAIK, in Sweden, the financial penalties for making employees redundant are very very harsh indeed.
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jbif, if you are correct then this is why they want to spin it out as a totally independent company then.
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"Morris Minors had a switch to turn off the speedo lights many years before Saab"
Just to clarify - I'm pretty sure the "night switch" in a SAAB switches off all dash and interior lights APART from the speedo.
I'd be sorry to see SAAB go. I think they're great looking cars still and the 2.0T petrol engine is a good one.
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Marc, you are right it leaves the speedo lit but only up as far as 85, I believe that the rest of the speedo will light up if you go over an indicated 85, so I am told by someone who might have seen it done once.
similarly other instruments light if they are needed, for example the fuel gauge will stay lit if it's in the red.
But it's a bit of a gadget anyway.
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According to the Financial Times Deutschland, Saab has just filed for bankruptcy:
tinyurl.com/cp77z7
I'm afraid it's in german, for some reason there is no reference on the Financial Times International site. I would suggest Google Translator to translate the article.
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Looks like the end then.....
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No, they have filed for bankruptcy protection. Its not the same as going bankrupt.
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So in real terms, not much has changed from the beginning of the week then?
They now have between 3 months and 1 year to find a buyer or some investment?
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20 years ago, a Manchester Saab dealership offered me what turned out to be a £900 under valuation on a vehicle I wished to part ex against my first ever Saab. Having found out about the under valuation in the nick of time ( and £900 was a lot of money 20 years ago ) I stepped away and went for some thing else. Can't help thinking that so much of the various car makers current angst is embedded in their historic treatment of their customers over the last decade or more.
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A friend in the trade tells me the biggest problem at the moment is the finance companies refusing about half the people he proposes, and loading the APR so heavily on the other half that people are deciding not to bother.
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Funny old world at the moment isn't it ? Friend of ours was made redundant by a large bank before Christmas. He was in a dept. which specialised in the arrangement of car finance for private individuals. They said his job was unsustainable.
Despite this he set up on his own in the same field at the beginning of the year and is incredibly busy. He has had to take on staff to help him. He tells us that he is seeing a lot of activity in used cars but less in new ones.
Of course I wish him well but remain astonished that there are still a lot of people out there prepared to take out finance deals on cars.
I continue to remain old fashioned about these things and simply would not borrow money against anything which is certain to depreciate.
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A car is a tool of your trade though, even for a normal commuter. Without one you can't earn money as easily so arguably finance is an investment of sorts. It is not a great investment but is it much worse than using cash? Either way you lose or pay interest. If you have the cash and borrow at a good rate you can make the cash you would have spent work for you in other ways to offset the cost. It can pay off if you can borrow to buy a more reliable car as the amount you could have lost on repairing the cheaper car could offset the cost of buying the more expensive one.
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30 years ago we had a SAAB dealer in Falkirk - modest premises.
Not good enough - flashy new showroom selling £20K+ turbos - only they did not sell in quantity. Over the years the no. of SAAB outlets dropped, the SAABness withered and you got poorer made cars @ premium prices and high service costs/repair costs................
Never owned a SAAB.
However as shown by Cadillac CTS at £6K for a 3 yr old then a SAAB 9-3 estate at £6K with 10K on the clock might change matters.
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News this morning: Saab have filed for bankruptcy protection.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7901027.stm?lss {link replaced}
Interesting, apparently just making Times links unclickable isn't enough any more, using their name is swearing. :-) {We've never allowed links to The Times, whether clickable or not}
Oh well, as the Telegraph haven't reported this yet, just go have a look.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 20/02/2009 at 10:39
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Oh well, as the Telegraph haven't reported this yet, just go have a look. >>
The Telegraph have had this story tinyurl.com/ckxnf6
since last night, Last Updated: 9:05AM GMT 20 Feb 2009
"The Swedish car-maker Saab Automobile was on the brink of failure on Thursday night after General Motors threatened to walk away, and the Swedish government refused to come to the rescue. "
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Back to this country...
tinyurl.com/arovgx
I reckon it will be Honda at Swindon. Any one think otherwise ?
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Back to this country... tinyurl.com/arovgx I reckon it will be Honda at Swindon. Any one think otherwise ?
Mr X - I don't think there has ever been a car plant in the world - let alone in Swindon, that employs 100,000!
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I think the figure inc those who provide parts and services to the plant and the manufactuer concerned.
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If we do it will be rubbish from China and India with old floor pans dressed up in what they think are top notch skins with slightly re worked engines and gear boxes from the past.
"old floor pans dressed up in what they think are top notch skins with slightly re worked engines and gear boxes from the past."
Sounds like GM Saabs.
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This press release just came in:-
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
SAAB ON THE ROAD TO INDEPENDENCE
* Swedish court process to reorganise Saab into a fully independent business
* Three new models ready to be launched over the next year and a half
* Saab aims to bring resources back to Sweden
* Funding sought for Â?new independent SaabÂ?
Trollhättan. As a result of GM�s strategic review of the global Saab business the Saab Board announced today that it will file for reorganisation under a self-managed Swedish court process to create a fully independent business entity that would be sustainable and suitable for investment.
The reorganisation is a self-managed, Swedish legal process headed by an independent administrator appointed by the court who will work closely with the Saab management team. As part of the process, Saab will formulate its proposal for reorganisation, which will include the concentration of design, engineering and manufacturing in Sweden. This proposal will be presented to creditors within three weeks of the filing. Pending court approval, the reorganisation will be executed over a three-month period and will require independent funding to succeed.
Â?We explored and will continue to explore all available options for funding and/or selling Saab and it was determined a formal reorganisation would be the best way to create a truly independent entity that is ready for investment,Â? said Jan Ake Jonsson, Managing Director for Saab Automobile. Â?With an all new 9-5, 9-3X and 9-4X all ready for launch over the next year and a half, Saab has an excellent foundation for strong growth, assuming we can get the funding to complete engineering, tooling and manage launch costs. Reorganisation will give us the time and means that help get these products to market while minimising the liquidity impact of Saab on GM.Â?
Funding for the restructured company will need to be secured during the reorganisation process and will be sought from both public and private sources.
Saab will continue to operate as usual and in accordance with the formal reorganisation process, with the Government providing some support during this period. The reorganisation should have no impact on other GM operations. Details of the progress will be provided as milestones are achieved.
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Looks like good news, if they pull it off.
'World cars' may be practical but they are a bit like 'world music': boring, bland, neither one thing nor another. Saabs were desirable and respected before they became Vauxhalls.
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If it becomes a separate legal entity and probably without GM involvement then I would think it can be pulled off. Would the Swedish government let it fail? I doubt it and hope not.
But there is no way a government would put money into Saab when it is part of GM. What's to stop GM just taking the money and using it to prop up GMC for instance.
I wonder if GM Europe are allowed to do something similar?
Sounds bad news for GM but with their problems they are probably relieved if they can offload some of these liabilities.
Edit: Saab is part of GM Europe so if GM Europe could split that would leave Vauxhall and Adam Opel safer?
Edited by rtj70 on 20/02/2009 at 14:41
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Do they realy think they can afford three new models in the current climate?
How will they pay for all the re-tooling as many common GM parts will no longer be available?
Sounds like another Rover-type scam where the new managers fill their pension pots with investors & banks money.
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Looks like good news if they pull it off.
Unless you are a creditor of SAAB.
Under reorganisation, it is effectively Swedish Chapter 11, which means not a penny has to be paid to any creditors. Three months might be manageable but if that is extended to the year then some suppliers will be over their heads.
Edited by gmac on 20/02/2009 at 14:44
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But if they do not try this, many of the suppliers will fail anyway - they won't be supplying what might be their only/main customer. But likewise if a key supplier failed, then that too could have a major effect on Saab.
Makes you realise when it all goes wrong like this that the model used for manufacture/assembly of cars has flaws.
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Bad news if it is true about Vauxhall. They are making some good cars but I have found their list prices to be very high (not allowing for discount of course). I don't know whether Opel/Vauxhall is profitable like Ford's European operation? It is the U.S market that is the shambles because from my limited experience and from talking to U.S friends they prefer more reliable and better quality Japanese engineered cars or, if well off, European. I find U.K Fords and Vauxhalls much better in every respect than their U.S range (save for Euro cars like Focus and Saturn Astra).
Saab as i have said elsewhere is also bland and pricey. Would you buy a 9-3 over a 3 series or A4?
Edited by mattbod on 20/02/2009 at 15:13
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Until recently one of the main problems for firms like Ford and GM in the states was healthcare costs. They still pay for previous employees. A huge liability. And if they fail that leaves many without healthcare cover.
At least Saab now won't be bust in 10 days. They have some time to sort this out. Yes suppliers won't get paid for a bit but Saab and they need to work together to sort out this mess.
I bet FIAT are glad GM declined the offer of buying them a few years ago - GM had to buy themselves out of the clause in the contract thus giving FIAT a fair bit of money and that resulted in cars like the Grande Punto, FIAT 500 and Ford Ka.
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Right on the button, Lud, as ever.
Good luck SAAB, let's hope they can pull it off and return to making interesting motors that are properly put together, rather than Opels in frocks.
My first piece of advice would be to change the names - am I right in remembering that 9-3, 9-5 etc was about holding on to one digit of previous models while the 3 and 5 indicated the BMWs they were trying to compete with? If so, BAD mistake. But just one of many from GM.
We had fun with my pal's 2-stroke 96 40-odd years ago - now there was character in a motor...
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At least Saab now won't be bust in 10 days.
But they are repeat are bust! - trading at a loss and can't pay the bills. When I read Mr Jonsson's statement I thought "nice try, old chap". Who in the world is going to finance the development of 3 new models, starting now?
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GM is bust it would seem. This is an attempt to separate the GM and Saab operations and then find someone to take over Saab.
Agree on the new models though.
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Would you buy a 9-3 over a 3 series or A4
matter of opinion, I chose a 93 over an A4 liked both, just liked the 93 better, been very pleased with it.
BMW was too high an insurance group for my kids to drive
might get one next time, at the end of this year
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