link to The Times Online chopped in accordance with site Policies - sorry
Will be interesting to see the comments on this... there are little enough traffic police as it is, I can't see this helping...
Edited by Pugugly on 25/02/2009 at 19:22
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Yet there are plenty of civilians to sit in camera vans " policing " our roads
There are plenty of plastic bobbies in expensive 4X4's cruising our motorways .
Money is available for these so why not spend it on real police.?
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Tenuous link to motoring - try and maintain it rather than going off into the realms of police bashing and politics please... unless you want it locked or shifted to one of the credit crunch threads.
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POLICE are becoming obsolete. Dissent will be detected by blanket camera coverage and powerful server farms running sophisticated software. All they need to do is employ some brainless heavies to pickup people identified by the system. In Nottingham lots of new SPECS cameras are being installed, but not primarily as speed cameras and indeed many incapable of being used as speed cameras, but as part of a pilot system called 'Ring of Steel'.
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I believe it's to cope with the mass unrest of peak oil. I'm glad to see Police cuts, no one should be immune from the recession.
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I would hate to see a higher proportion of remaining police officers have their duties diverted to revenue earning activities, and so, I suspect, would most police officers. By "revenue earning activities", I am, of course, referring to nicking motorists for minor misdemeanors that, had the government been less strapped for cash, would have been dealt with by means of a warning. No country can survive without a decent and effective police force respected by the population.
HJ
Edited by Honestjohn on 24/02/2009 at 21:13
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Could the melting snowman explain his comment a bit more effectively, please.
HJ
Edited by Honestjohn on 24/02/2009 at 21:17
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OK. Not 'glad' to see Police numbers cut for the sake of it but there are going to have to be some seriously hard choices being made in the next few decades concerning public spending. I don't think the Police or any sector should not have to make trimmings in order for for the revenue/expenditure balance to get, er, rebalanced. We are going to have to get used to poorer NHS, Schools etc. Smaller civil service, MOD...
Peak oil - there's a lot of debate about how the oil age will end and exactly what the implications will be. But what is undeniable is that it WILL happen and the consequences will be uncomfortable. As people scramble for the available resources, there will be some civil unrest and I believe all these surveillance cameras are all part of a bigger scheme to monitor us for what might happen.
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I think we could go at least a year now with out inventing any more ' motoring misdemeanors ' capable of being cured only by a fine.
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Sorry, PG, but I don't think a cut in Police numbers is a "tenuous" link to motoring... using cameras is all well and good, but most of us on here feel that the proper Traffic Cops are best way to educate those whose motoring falls below decent standards... any cuts will directly affect the Forces' ability to police the roads... therefore there is a direct link between motoring and police job loses, not a tenuous one.
It will be a shame if certain backroomers use it as an excuse to "bash" the police... and it seems its already started... predicatable, I suppose.
Edited by b308 on 24/02/2009 at 21:30
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b308, there are already too few police dealing with traffic. But very few traffic police. So a reduction in any police a bad idea IMHO. But these jobs cuts will affect police full stop - not just traffic police.... so not motoring only.
I originally missed out just... thanks to b308 for pointing out my mistake. Rob
Edited by rtj70 on 24/02/2009 at 22:02
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But these jobs cuts will affect police full stop - not traffic police
So you are saying that any cuts in the overall numbers of Police will not affect the numbers of traffic police... okay, what makes you think that? I agree that its not just motoring that will be affected, but any more decrease of traffic police numbers will just make matters worse on the roads and I can't see how overall cuts will not affect TP numbers.
Edited by b308 on 24/02/2009 at 21:51
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I never said it would not affect traffic police. It will affect policing full stop. All wrong.
Edit... I missed out a word in my other post. I did imply then. Not any more. Sorry.
Edited by rtj70 on 24/02/2009 at 22:01
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Just remember one thing Snowman - Police Officers are in well paid secure jobs, they and other public servants are still spending on new cars and other things, a hint of insecurity in these and similar jobs will have people pulling their horns in.
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I think there is some spinning here and careful use of words. A Police Force (Police Officers nothing else) has an Authorised Establishment (note use of capitals) - this defines the agreed number of Officers of various ranks that the force has agreed with the Home Office it should have - this figure can sometimes slightly above or frequently below, but rarely exactly on the numbers. Each Basic Command Unit or in old money Divisions has an established strength - this is an internal arrangement. Each Police Officer role is a "Post" (note use of capital for a reason) in an ideal world these Posts are filled as per the establishment, but in reality only reflect an approximation of the BCU establishment is what is actually deployed - Posts are gapped to cover specialist roles, Officers on maternity and rarely these days Officers on extended sick leave. When deleting Posts - these are the first to go when "jobs" are cut. Business Managers will also lose roles in order of cost, i.e. if an Inspector retires, he/she may get replaced by a Sergeant, and Sergeant Posts are regularly chopped (which causes other problems) in favour of PC Posts. Making an Officer redundant (especially higher service PCs or higher ranks) would be hideously and prohibitively expensive.
Police budgets are traditionally set in late February and the precept on the Council tax is a critical element - most Forces are looking to settle at the maximum 5% increase allowed, and will, traditionally, make projections based on various percentile increases or reductions, this will include dire warnings of Police Staff cuts and chopping of Posts (note use of that word and not Officers) this will include projections for natural wastage (lot of this going on now as the Edmund Davies crowd arrive at their 30 years service), and you can forget the nonsense of ill-health pensions, rarely allowed now as long term sick Officers are re-deployed into Office posts under DDA requirements.
I know that my own BCU has merged two Policing districts - shedding an Inspector Post, a Sergeant Post and a PC Post - they've also "lost" a car - the cost of that alone is significant £20k for a kitted out Focus, Servicing, repairs (including crash repairs that are paid for rather than insured) and fuel for a year nudges towards the cost of a senior PC who grosses around £36k plus oncosts before overtime. Overtime will be shaved by introducing 10 hour rather than 8 hour shifts and slashing staffing on Bank Holidays.
I have learnt this over many years of shooting with a Police Business Manager - who provides a graphic insight into the everyday battles fought to deploy Officers into the front-line. Police Staff will be the first to go, followed by Neighbourhood Policing Officers - deployed into response Posts that fall vacant as Officers retire or move to other Posts on promotion or into another BCU.
Police pensions are funded directly by the Home Office now rather than local taxation.
Police organisations are paragons of efficiency compared to other Public bodies - the facts are available if you dig deep enough.
Edited by Pugugly on 24/02/2009 at 23:17
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Very informative PU. And I will need to read that again to digest. But the difference between Post and officer noted.
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It *is* interesting. Various organisations mention that they're removing or replacing "officers" - does that mean effective cuts to what is really middle management, or are constables at the "sharp end" in the firing line? That could have an effect on car/motoring crime, as well as other crime. What is the percentage reduction in the areas mentioned, i.e.:
Gwent minus 80 officers - from a total of ??
North Yorkshire has dropped by 120 in the past two years (from ??)
South Yorkshire Police cut 82 officers last year (ditto)
Surrey is bracing itself for ?significant and painful cuts? with the loss of 144 officers and staff. How many officers, how many staff?
How many traffic police, or generalists, or other specialists?
Without proper details, it's impossible to start to estimate effects of cuts. A very "woolly" newspaper article.
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Humberside is given as an example of losing 300 Officers. What it does not say is that is over the next 5 years.
The current thrust is towards 'Workforce Modernisation'. Basically Posts that are occupied by Officers (there are many) have been identified as ripe for conversion into a Staff (Civilian) role because the nature of the role does not require the powers bestowed upon a reasonably well paid Officer. Staff salaries are quite a bit less. So, say 300 Posts undertaken by Officers are converted. You have lost 300 Officers and gained 300 Staff with no loss on the front line. Savings are made in the quite substantial difference in salaries. This is a gradual process with natural wastage and retirement reducing the Police numbers. What you have to remember also is that there are very very few 30 year Coppers 'pushing' an Incident Response Car around (pounding the beat). Recruitment stagnates.
What is now being offered is for retiring officers in those posts identified for conversion to be offered the converted post on retirement to retain experience and expertise providing they have been performing well in that role.
In the short term this sounds good for financial savings. But what happens when those retired Officers go for permanent retirement? Who will be ready to step into their role with the necessary skills? Roles such as Civilian Investigators (low level investigation); come the end of the Credit Crunch may either leave for better salaries or apply to become Officers, who would want their jobs with average salaries. No continuity and massive training and retention implications.
Police Officers are omnicompetent, that's the nature of their training and role. People often complain about the above average salaries but they are not paid for what they do, they are paid for what they can do. For example one day they could be working in say a training role and the next a football match or helping victims of flooding. You can't do that with Police Staff.
Another consideration is resilience. The Olympics are not far away. How deep is this recession going to bite? Civil unrest? The Miners Strike saw 12 + hour shifts, 6 days a week. Police Officers were shipped off to other parts of the country . Someone has to stay back and deal with the routine stuff. That went on for nearly a year!
Edited by Fullchat on 25/02/2009 at 00:39
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'The Miners Strike saw 12 + hour shifts, 6 days a week'
Car dealers in my area couldn't believe their luck when a large part of our force was sent to Yorkshire for duties during the strike. Thanks to the overtime and extra allowances, they had money coming out of their ears on their return and every nick was resplendent with shiny new cars.
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The police were used instead of the army because of the historical connotations of "sending in the troops as strike breakers." It was a PR disaster for the police.
HJ
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No police officer can actually lose their job by being made redundant -that should be made clear -only through misconduct, retirement or resignation routes.
I believe the agenda for policing is or was creating a first tier of policing (PCSOs) gradually given more powers. In may places this has stalled or been reversed as they suddenly realise it ain't cheaper in the long run.
Pulling criminals for traffic offences often leads to discovering many other things -this doesn't happen with a camera
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But it's OK. Because the bankers are all getting to keep their jobs, paid for with £1tr of money that would otherwise have paid for policemen.
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Mr X would say they are both bankers in the cockney way
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'Mr X would say they are both bankers in the cockney way"
So you know what I will be posting before I even post it. Anything else I am likely to be saying in the near future ?
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No doubt posted with an implied smiley Mr X ?
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