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Until you let them know that it wasn't you and you suspect you've been cloned, what reason have they to think it might not be you? The act of informing them that it was not your car then shifts the balance back over to them having to prove it was you, surely? I can't see how that's particularly unfair - why waste large amounts of money on an open and shut case in, for example, a car running a light?
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I think a more joined up approach from the relevant authorities is required. You get a red light ticket from a clone of your car reg and you have to do all the chasing to prove it' wasn't you. Week later and a speed camera ticket arrives and off you go again. Then along comes a bus lane ticket, a parking ticket.... get the picture. Seems to be no way of sorting it out once and for all.
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See psots from woodster & self.
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One day I looked out of the window to see two policemen walking up the drive, they did not reach the door but started looking very closely at our car.
Went out to see what they wanted.
Them - Is this your car sir.
Me - No it is registered in my wife's name (of course they would already know this).
Them - Have you had it long?
Me - Since it was new, 8 years.
Them - A car with this number was used in a robbery in the south a few days ago.
At which point they depart without asking to see any documentation or even speak to my wife - the owner of the car.
The date - sometime in 1991!
So it is not new, and both vehicles were grey sierras
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Similar thing happened to me one evening. Got a phone call from Lancashire Police.
'Do you own a Golf *** 24X ? ' 'My son does' 'Can you tell me where it is please'
' No problem it's here, at home, hasn't been on the road for a year or so '
An hour later a GMP policewoman sergeant knocked on the door to inspect it. It was all in bits with the engine out so she agreed it wAsn't the car they were looking for. She was very nice, had a cuppa and I told her about policing in the 'good old days'.
It had been in an 'incident in Blackburn or somewhere!
Ted
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Old mate was woken up in the very early morning by armed police, through the front door with a battering ram.
His old Sierra (jelly mould model) had been nicked and used in a very nasty armed robbery that night and he hadn't noticed it gone.
A few minutes explaining that he and young family had been in all night watching Nole's House Party etc on Saturday evening sorted things out and the culprits were found by other means.
Not cloning but just shows that if your car is used by bad guys it can have nasty reprocussions.
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I think a more joined up approach from the relevant authorities is required. You get a red light ticket from a clone of your car reg and you have to do all the chasing to prove it' wasn't you. Week later and a speed camera ticket arrives and off you go again. Then along comes a bus lane ticket a parking ticket.... get the picture. >>
no doubt all these offences are committed in different areas, different jurisdictions or handled by different staff...and/or you can't give a total exemption to the owner/driver of the genuine car, because they might commit an offence as well
e.g. cloned vehicle drives through bus lane covered by local authority A, then commits a speeding offence in Constabulary A, followed by speeding offence in constabulary B, parking offence in local authority B, beofre doing another bus lane in the first local authoity, but the matter is dealt with by someone different to the first one..or..they've dealt with so many between those times, they don't remember the car
and 'no' putting a marker on the Police National Computer which is possible, doesn't necessarily solve the problem, because A, the council can't access it and B, the genuine car might have a driver commit an offence as well, so they'd be sent the NIP (Notice of Intended Prosecution) at which point they could state the releavnt facts. They still have enter into some degree of correspondence with the authorities, to show the vehicle wasn't the offending vehicle because unsurprisingly loads of people try the cloned vehicle route to get off their own misdemeanours.
You couldn't possibly have a system whereby the claim that your car was cloned would automatically mean the offence was dropped..because all the oiks would do that automatically.....unless of course this modern system of prosecuting by camera was done away with in its' entirety
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Following the logic of Westpig's submission, the response of an innocent party should simply be, "Not guilty. See you in court." That would clog up the courts, infuriate magistrates at the incompetence of the prosecuting authorities and might eventually force them to rethink their trial by camera policies. The reason behind Fixed Penalties is convenience of prosecution. If that could be made very inconvenient, then we might start seeing some kind of justice again. And, in the meantime, anyone who knows they did commit the offence can simply take the fixed penalty.
A reader had a very valuable cherished reg cloned and the cloner committed a lot of offences causing the reader considerable grief. I advised him to transfer the reg to a retention certificate, leaving the only car (or cars) on the streets with that plate the cloners and hoping they will eventually get picked up an ANPR traps.
HJ
Edited by Honestjohn on 02/03/2009 at 07:04
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" we might start seeing some kind of justice again. "
So are you suggesting that those who blatantly speed (I see it EVERY day) are not getting justice when they get a £60 ticket and three points?
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No. I wrote, "And, in the meantime, anyone who knows they did commit the offence can simply take the fixed penalty."
HJ
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Following the logic of Westpig's submission the response of an innocent party should >> simply be "Not guilty. See you in court." That would clog up the courts infuriate magistrates at the incompetence of the prosecuting authorities and might eventually >> force them to rethink their trial by camera policies.
why wouldn't an innocent party want to inform the authorities, early on, that they are innocent..and 'this is the reason why', so that the authorities can try to find the person who is really up to no good. Fair enough if the innocent party receives bureacratic intransigence, which IMO is the real problem, then by all means be awkward then, until some common sense can prevail.
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why wouldn't an innocent party want to inform the authorities early on that they are innocent..and 'this is the reason why' so that the authorities can try to find the person who is really up to no good. Fair enough if the innocent party receives bureacratic intransigence which IMO is the real problem then by all means be awkward then until some common sense can prevail.
Because.... if a car is cloned you know as well as I do, that there is very likely going to be a number of letters dropping onto the doormat, I would want to nip that in the bud asap.
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WP I don't think anyone is saying a) that simply stating "my car's not a clone guv" should be good enough to close down enquiries or b) that innocent parties wouldn't want to prove themselves as such. The point, as far as I see it, that HJ is making is that these automated letters (surely intended to reduce overheads, certainly not to improve a service) land on your doormat as a fait accompli - you have to do all the running or else your name (on the database) is quickly marked. This is many peoples' experience.
It's difficult to separate the police from the governmental bureaucracy which spawned it in order to identify a possible solution too. The two are now so intertwined at high level that it's necessary to blame both.
So we continue, when faced with a real human being sporting full police uniform, to misguidedly vent our frustrations there and then; at people with little power to affect change and even then unlikely to be on the side of Mr Angry.
The solution is out there. Apparently.
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WP I don't think anyone is saying a) that simply stating "my car's not a clone guv" should be good enough to close down enquiries or b) that innocent parties wouldn't want to prove themselves as such. The point as far as I see it that HJ is making is that these automated letters (surely intended to reduce overheads certainly not to improve a service) land on your doormat as a fait accompli - you have to do all the running or else your name (on the database) is quickly marked. This is many peoples' experience.
that's not the case at all...if a car is thought to be involved in an offence, the registered keeper is sent a form asking them who was driving on a specific date/time...then that driver is sent an NIP... at that early stage, there is nothing to stop someone explaining that no one was drivng that car at that time on that day...as the car wasn't there because...and if there's previous evidence of cloning, mention that as well
many people do very little to help themselves at times of difficulty, then moan like hell when officialdom starts chasing them
I do however fully undertsand the other side of the coin...when not if unfortunately...
bureacrats don't do their jobs properly and expect an innocent motorist to prove they're innocent rather then them prove otherwise... and I am aware of people having a right nightmare in these circs....on those occasions i'd agree with HJ...ask for a court hearing
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'many people do very little to help themselves at times of difficulty, then moan like hell when officialdom starts chasing them'
I think you will find that those who moan. i.e the innocent ones, do so because they are unhappy with the change in law that means you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent something you can only do by taking the time and trouble to fill out the forms that land on your door mat. Would you be happy to fill out a form once a week giving all your movements over a 7 day period so as to preclude you from any reported crimes in your town ?.
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