08 Focus 1.6 Style with alloys and aircon for £8,500 from www.motorpoint.co.uk
HJ
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Holiways, a chain of Ford dealers in the North East, also have loads of del miles 08 Styles for £8/9k.
Must have been hundreds released from somewhere.
Think most of the number plates say Paragon or Ambrosetti - whoever they are.
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Not Pendragon?
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... not Pendragon?...
No, definitely Paragon.
Someone in the trade will know who they are, fleet/leasing company at a guess.
Unless it's the manufacturer of the number plate. :)
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No definitely Paragon.
Paragon was a big buy-to-let mortgage lender during the boom.
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>> >> No definitely Paragon. >> >> Paragon was a big buy-to-let mortgage lender during the boom. >>
See www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/item.htm?id=5826
PARAGON COMPLETES CAMDEN DEAL
Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:51
Paragon, a UK fleet vehicle processing and captive fleet management company has acquired significant elements of The Camden Group from the administrators, Zolfo Cooper, in a rescue deal closed on Tuesday 3 March 2009.
.... etc.
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...Paragon...
jbif,
Thanks for rooting that one out.
The other name I noticed on the number plates - Ambrosetti - comes up on Google as a similar 'vehicle processing/fleet management' company.
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"Holiways, a chain of Ford dealers in the North East, also have loads of del miles 08 Styles for £8/9k."
But... with the 09 plate coming out tomorrow these 08 plate cars could be a year old! And with just delivery miles.
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...."Holiways a chain of Ford dealers in the North East also have loads of del miles 08 Styles for £8/9k."
.... But with the 09 plate coming out tomorrow these 08 plate cars could be a year old!
Yes, that's why they are £8/9K as against today's list price of £15/17k.
No one pays list, but if you want a factory order Style, you will pay £12/13k.
Now are we starting to understand the car market?
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if only I had another £6k
What I hate about all this is that the public now thinks cars are cheap, the real fact is unless you buy something deeply unpopular used cars seem to be holding their value as well as ever.
I remember back in 2002 my dad paid £1600 for a 6 year old Escort with FSH etc, you would not get any proper used car that cheap for that price now.
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But £1600 was more money so to speak 7 years ago wasn't it.
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I'm in the market for a Focus Titanium Estate, probably a 1.6 TDCi. Now as I see it unless there are a few sat on a field somewhere one will have to be made to order. I will have a PX
Now there is some room for negotiation BUT if there is not enough in it for the dealer then they will not take the order.
Its the manufacturers who are in the seat re discounts. They have production costs and a margin on each unit. They can reduce the costs by laying off staff and let the government pay them (benefits). I would doubt very much that they will still churn out bargains to sell. Nor will they wish to reduce the price too much as it sets a benchmark for when the market picks up again. Or am I missing a something?
So I cant get a discount to take me to roughly what I am wish to spend. I start to look at the used market,in particular Ford Direct. The prices are more like what I want to spend. Ford have control of that as it is supplied by the fleet market who get the cracking discounts that I cant get at new.
Edited by Fullchat on 27/02/2009 at 19:11
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...or am I missing something?....
Don't think so, the manufacturers would rather shut the factory than be forced to sell stock at ridiculously low prices.
Don't believe me anyone?
Ask Nissan, Honda, Vauxhall, Toyota, Mini, Jaguar etc etc,
All laying off staff, asking them to take pay cuts, closing, or having non-production days.
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Don't think so the manufacturers would rather shut the factory than be forced to sell stock at ridiculously low prices.
SQ
I totally agree, I think the motor trade would rather crush unsold cars or ship them to some 3rd world country than sell them in the UK at knock down prices.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 28/02/2009 at 12:27
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I'm in the market for a Focus Titanium Estate probably a 1.6 TDCi. Now as I see it unless there are a few sat on a field somewhere one will have to be made to order. I will have a PX
I saw a few of these in Newport Motorpoint back in September. They were a bargain and I would have bought one if I could have fitted in it.
Oops, sorry - I saw hatches.
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>>I remember back in 2002 my dad paid £1600 for a 6 year old Escort with FSH etc,
>>you would not get any proper used car that cheap for that price now.
Change the record Rattle.
Just go to Autotrader. Select engine size 1.4-1.6; up to 7 years old. There are 921, that's nine hundred and twenty one cars nationwide. Let's say 50% of them are mis-advertised/advertised with requiring a new engine. That's still nearly 500 cars.
Rover 45 2002, 52 reg. 120000 Miles, new shape met Mercury Blue 5 dr FSH 1 owner RCL EW PAS, CD, air con, twin air bag, long MOT EM £1195
Xsara 1.6i 3 Door Coupe, 78000 Miles Gold, Petrol, Manual, 3x3 point rear seat belts, ABS, Body coloured bumpers, Drivers airbag, Electric door mirrors, Front electric windows, Adjustable steering column/wheel, central locking, cd player, mot n tax, clean inside and out. £1,195 ono.
Almera 1.5 105,000 miles, 5 Door Hatchback, Blue, Petrol, Manual, Air conditioning, Audio remote control, Body coloured bumpers, Remote Central locking, Drivers airbag, Electric Windows, Two Keys, MOT June 09, Good Tyres, CD, Drives Very Well . £1,250 ono.
Your £1,600 budget gives you enough to have a full main dealer service including cambelt(/chain if you're really paranoid), and if the Nissan's insurance is a tad more expensive, then your budget will probably cover that too. And that Xsara is in GOLD - cool!
Edited by Mapmaker on 27/02/2009 at 19:29
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What Mapmaker said.
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Just juggling a few figures in my head for a further post. Anyone have any idea what a Focus would cost to rent from one of the mainstream hire companies? Daily and weekly rates?
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Probably get cheaper via HolidayAuto for less and still get it from a mainstream. And full cover for accidents cheaper.
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Its the figures I'm after, I don't want to hire one. :-)
As I say I'm just juggling some figures for a post. What I'm thinking is that say a top range Focus retails for say £16,000. A major fleet buyer can maybe get 30% discount maybe more. That would reduce the price to say roughly £10,000.
If they could get say £50 a day rental, that's £1825 a year. After a year it goes back to the manufacturer at an agreed value say £9.000 and onto the market and it retails at about £12.000. Quality nearly new cars to appeal to someone who resents paying for new and losing say £2000 just driving off the forecourt. (Like me).
Hire company make £825 which is about 7.5% profit. Manufacturer makes healthy profit by selling the car twice.
I'm maybe way out on my figures as the discount is probably greater and there may be tax concessions in there as well.
Just something I was thinking about - must get out more!
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But longer term rentals are possible if you ask, so will not be £50 per day. They won't be anyway.
I'll try a quote now.... and you'll get better for longer.
Car type/category Focus 4dr:
1 day = £39
1 week = £152 (so £21/day)
1 month = £573 (so £20.50/day)
But not all cars out all the time on hire.
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I reckon the residual values of current new cars will be excellent. In 3 years time there will be very few 3 year old cars about to buy just when the economy is picking up.....
Used cars are in any case on the rise at the moment - many dealers are busier with used cars than they have been for 2 or more years and dealers are fighting over anything in the trade.
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Reading a few other motoring forums I have spotted posts from people who have gone into dealerships expecting a discount and received very little, if anything.
Why would this be (apart from said "potential" customers possibly rubbing the salesman up the wrong way with talk of "I am king so give me 99% off list price")?
Are we now seeing dealers holding out for a desperate customer who has to buy a car at any cost, hence they can sell at list price?
Or do dealers really have to sell for £1 profit just to keep money coming in?
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runboy, they could be contracted to buy at an agreed price so probably have to hold out.
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If they could get say £50 a day rental, that's £1825 a year ...
errmm .. ? not on my calculator. Am I missing something?
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>> If they could get say £50 a day rental that's £1825 a year ... errmm .. ? not on my calculator. Am I missing something?
Yes he missed a zero... £18250 if rented out everyday for 12 months. But they don't keep for 12 months and don't have all cars rented out each day.
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Blimey yes your right I did miss out a zero! And with that kind of profit they can turn the vehicles around quicker so they are almost new. I'm shooting in the dark withe figures but apart from my maths I can't be wildly out.
However even half that figure and the vehicle has paid for itself in a year. So selling/leasing to the fleet market, buying back and then selling to the nearly new market can potentially be quite lucrative all round except for the private buyer.
Edited by Fullchat on 28/02/2009 at 00:24
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You missed a 0 fullchat but when you put the figures down the rest of what you stay are still right.
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Whilst dealers might not be laughing their heads off many have seen an excellent start to 2009 so are pretty relaxed about things.
Stupidly low used prices combined with cutsomers willing to overspend on maintenance (rather than change cars) have seen some healthy revenue.
The dire period was August to December 2008. The dealers which survived seem quite postitive.
At the end of the day people still need cars - just different ones - so dealers who have adapted, amongst the ones I know, seem to think 2009 might well be a boom year.
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I was speaking to a dealer the other day. He didn't sound too confident. They are selling cars at cost at the moment after mailing all the old customers they've had over the years. The hope was that they would do enough business to get the large backend bonus. He said that if they achieve that then they will be ok - otherwise he wasn't at all sure what would happen.
It will be interesting to see what happens after the March new reg sales are over.
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Change the record Rattle. ... >>
Mapmaker - He's got you Rattled. Hook, line, and sinker. I did bite at the very beginning but then after having swallowed 7 pints while having a Fiesta in the pond, I managed to unhook myself and saved myself from drowning in the murky PC world of repairing computers and shed loads of second-hand cars, sorry, sheds.
Think about it.
Edited by jbif on 28/02/2009 at 12:46
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08 Focus 1.6 Style with alloys and aircon for £8 500 from www.motorpoint.co.uk HJ
This car was £8,299 a few months ago in Motorpoint and Trade-Sales
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'09 reg car?
Wait till nearer the end of March - price drops/pre-reg will make today's '09 prices look expensive.
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Let's see. I think prices will continue going up.
HJ
Edited by Honestjohn on 28/02/2009 at 13:30
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I agree, HJ, since most cars are imported and the pound is dismal against the Euro.
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The Euro is about to tank. Unemployment is soaring many Eurozone counties, more so than here in the UK.
At the same time the output of countries like Germany is shrinking at an alarming rate. Standby to watch the Euro tank in the coming months. I am so confident I am just about to renew my annual travel insurance so I can go on holiday later this year.
Once this happens the laughable excuse of things costing more in the UK will be just another joke - prices of cars did not plummet during the past 10 years when the Pound was much stronger than the Euro!
FUD - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Don't believe the hype of car makers.
At the same time here in the UK people are trying to hold onto their homes, their jobs and simply keep their heads above water. The entire country is suffering from debt overload and the reprecussions of this will not be over in 10 years let alone 1. Anyone who cannot understand this is simply living in denial.
Yes, the car makers can put up their prices as much as they want but that is not going to get debt heavy debt weary people running out to buy their cars. You simply cannot force people to buy things!
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No, tawse, and neither do you have to make things and sell them at a loss. That's why Honda in Swindon is shut for 4 months.
HJ
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reckon the four month shutdown could last longer, HJ?
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No one is saying that they should sell at a loss.
This is about car companies wanting to continue to rip off the UK 'Treasure Island' population with their exhorbitant prices during what may well become a depression.
As I have said before, every other seller of goods is dropping their prices to stay in business so why aren't the car companies? Arrogance? Greed? Stupidity?
Before this is through lots of car makers will have gone to the wall, thousands of car workers will have lost their jobs never to work in car making again, the execs of those companies will lose their lavish expense accounts and salaries... and the stockpiled cars in fields will eventually be sold off in a fire sale.
In the past week I have spoken with about 6 people, 4 today, all who are interested in buying a car but are refusing to do so now because of what they perceive as greed by the car makers. People aren't stupid, they know what is going on in the economy, many are seeing the affects of the credit crisis for themselves and then they see car companies who whinge about how hard done by they are whilst not reducing prices.
Such sentinment in the UK population can quickly turn from indifference to anger - estate agents, bankers and, soon to be, car makers all lumped in together.
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No tawse and neither do you have to make things and sell them at a loss. That's why Honda in Swindon is shut for 4 months. HJ
But if you make nothing and sell nothing you have no money coming and huge fixed costs going out. You need cashflow at times like this
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If you make nothing and sell nothing you have no money coming ..
But if you make nothing but sell something, however small by comparison, you may pull through. You don't need to make anything for a while when there are several months' worth of new cars waiting on airfields, when there would normally have been six weeks' worth.
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As a graduate, I was put on a very good internally run course. We all got split up and "run businesses".... it was fun but you learned a lot about the need to market and more importantly cash flow. Teams went out of business despite having a good business. But if you have no cash to pay staff wages etc....
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All 3 above posts are spot on about cashflow - the bosses of the High Street retailers know and understand this. Your white van man plumber, kitchen fitter, TV repair man, hairdresser, etc, knows and understands this.
It is a fundamental concept of business. Heck, even those spotty faced teenagers who pass as 'bank managers' in High Street banks know enough to ask you about this if you are a small business asking for a loan but...
Those fatcats on the mega wages, perks and pensions running the World's car companies do not appear to understand this - why?
The car companies are no different in this regard to your local plumber. They owe lines of credit to the banks and eventually the banks will be wanting to know when they are going to get paid.
Those tens of thousands of cars sitting in fields literally rusting are devaluing in price day by day. OK, they might get away with doing this for a year but after that these models are going to be considered old, out of date and even 'used' by the Public.
Let's assume that the credit crisis is all over in 12 months - some hope - and people start buying cars again. Who is going to spend money on something that they know has been rotting in a field for a year or more when they can buy something that is then just built in the factory? I wouldn't. Would you? Not unless you got a serious discount on the 'used' car. If I end up buying a year from now I will find myself changing from wanting to buy a CRV to buying one of those nice, newly built 2009 Toyotas or something else fresh out of the factory.
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Surely, some of their attitude is because they have managed to persuade governments that they are a special case which deserves government support. Thus there is less pressure on them as they think that govt would not allow them to go to the wall.
Having said that, people are very expectant that they can drive a hard bargain in the current situation, and can be quite vocal and aggressive trying to do so. I really hope that, if they do get their bargains now, they calm down a bit "when this is all over" and realise that they were fortunate, and that bargains cannot last. Consumers are very demanding.
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I thought Eamon Holmes talking to Quentin Wilson on ITV's This Morning this week was very revealing.
Here was a mainstream TV programme, with some of the biggest audience for ITV, and they were quite openly talking about this 'misconnect' between what the car companies are saying re few sales, what they are claiming about discounts and then when you go into a dealer to buy you ain't getting a sniff of a deal.
I think Eamon Holmes was spot on in his questioning of what is going on. He quite rightly wanted to know what is up. Well done him.
I have noticed numerous threads about car prices and lack of discounts on numerous non-car forums that I post on. People are getting angry about this. Now, it has made it to mainstream Television. I get the feeling that the car makers are crusty old men sat in ivory towers with no idea of this 'Internet thing'.
I think we are going to see more and more questions asked of the car makers in the coming months. I think they are going to get a lot of the same flak that the bankers are now getting.
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Tawse,
I think one of the weaknesses of your argument is that people have not stopped buying cars - PU and me are living proof of this.
What has happened is that a reduced number of cars are being sold and we are seeing how manufacturers deal with that reduction in demand.
Up to a point, fluctuations in demand will be managed by the manufacturer with little or no difficulty.
What I don't think any of us know is what size drop in demand will set off the Doomsday scenario to which you refer.
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The size of the drop in demand has already happened. It is now like that scene in The Dambusters where they have bombed the final dam and Richard Todd is watching with baited breath for any sign of damage. He begins to think that they have failed but then he sees the cracks in the dam begining to form before a deluge finally and suddenly destroys it.
The resonance waves of the credit crisis have destroyed the car industry, the car makers just don't realise it yet ;-)
These 54% drop in sales are not just a fluctuation in demand. It is a crisis for the car industry. Before this is over we will see several makes of car disappear forever from the forecourts - the GM satellites look most likely to go along with Chrysler disappearing either entirely or perhaps becoming part of GM.
As ludicrous as it might sound now, before this is out we could see some German and Japanese brands merging also. Didn't Merc and another German maker announce some partnership this week?
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But what if all these manufacturers drasically reduce their prices - this will have a huge knock-on effect on second hand prices and residuals.
So if dealer X has £1m worth of used stock on their forecourt, if they start doing better deals on new cars, well the value of their used lot will fall as well won't it? Surely they would prefer to sell their own stock rather than actively reduce the value of it?
I would rather they keep their fields full of cars than reduce them and consequently reduce the value of my own car further
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Tawse, read my earlier posts about Motorpoint and CarGiant. They are finding it increasingly difficult to source cheap cars. That is what is really happening. And if you think cars are cheaper in Europe than in "rip off Britain", try buying one in Europe swith your sterling. However I take the point that though Britain has the worst joke of an economy in the world, other countries depend on supplying countries like Britain's and the USA, which is why exporting economies like Japan are in deep trouble, Thailand is in deep trouble and Europe is too, and this might have the effect of increasing the relative value of sterling.
HJ
Edited by Honestjohn on 28/02/2009 at 22:48
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>> Is that with or without trading in your old car? >> I believe it was if you walked in with a wad of notes - no trade in.
So it won't apply to the vast majority of new car buyers.
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