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Whilst the Police have totally embraced the H&S madness what their management have failed to account for is the distances that Officers have to travel to work on top of busy shifts which have in most forces being lengthened from the traditional 8 hour shift to 10 or even 12 hour shifts. This linked to pro-active requirements which the Fire and Ambulance services don't suffer must logically lead to them being more tired.
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"This linked to pro-active requirements which the Fire and Ambulance services don't suffer must logically lead to them being more tired."
Can you explain PU.
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I think he means that unless there is a shout you can get your head down on a night :-)
Grenade!!!
Edited by Fullchat on 19/05/2009 at 20:17
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Maybe the POLICE do too much overtime due to their type of work and the amount of crime for the low numbers of officers?
I doubt there is so much scope in the ambulance or fire trade.
I should think that a POLICE officer could wangle it to make sure he or she get a supplementary income from additional hours, nice when shopping but not so good for for the mind.
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Post 7/7 Thames Valley had almost unlimited overtime guarding the woods near High Wycombe that were being searched. I know several coppers with new kitchens and bathrooms on the strength of 14 hours shifts for months with no days off.
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This thread drifting in my opinion... If it does not get back on track it may be made read-only.
Edited by rtj70 on 19/05/2009 at 21:31
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I work 12hr shifts and do virtually no overtime. I'm on the road for most of those 12hrs. I'm afraid the overtime argument is a red herring.
The issue must be put in perspective though. I go home tired after a night shift, but I'm never exhausted to the extent it's dangerous for me to drive.
It would be nice to get paid to have a kip though..knew I should've joined Trumpton! (RPG to follow grenade :) )
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'I work 12hr shifts and do virtually no overtime. I'm on the road for most of those 12hrs.'...
yet the powers that be have decided lorry drivers musn't do that.
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I know several coppers with new kitchens and bathrooms on the strengthof 14 hours shifts for months with no days off.
I would want more than that for those hours day upon day.
MD
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And some nights we're out ALL night. 15 hours straight.
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It used to be that in the Met' and City of London you had to live within 25 miles of Charing X (as far as I recall.....it might even have been 30 miles)
To deal with the expense of living within that area, the commissioner for each force allowed officers to live much further out.
I know of officers in the city who travel in from West Mids, although that is by train.
I remember in Kent a female officer lived in Pas de Calais area, much to annoyance of Chief Constable.
I do remember guys having accidents on way home after night shift, and I recall one fatality. However, that was mainly due to a couple of early morning sherberts in the meat market pubs. I can promise you that a pint of Guiness has never tasted cleaner and better than after a 10hr night shift. However, it was the tube for me....not the car.
Drink driving is not so much of an issue in the police as it used to be in days of old (i.e Life on Mars era). So, I am sure that is not the cause.
Drink driving was nothing to be proud of, but it was quite normal.
I wonder if the accident rate is anything to do with a combination of tiredness AND over confidence in driving skills (endowed through police driving course)
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well outside London to almost fall asleep at the wheel.
I'm sure that's a problem for many public service people who work in London.
Outside the capital, it does seem that particularly Police Officers oftem seem to live in a different county to the one on which they work. Perhaps that's deliberate, but leaves them with a longer commute that, say, fire or ambulance staff.
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midlifecrisis, is a 12 hour shift normal and universal? I was under the impression that the POLICE usually work 3 eight hour shifts per day?
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In response to Mr X, please try driving a 40 tonne HGV for 12 hours at a maximum speed of 90kmh. I can't understand why more HGV drivers don't drop off after 4 - 6 hours. At least midlife gets a bit of variety, but it still reads like an exhausting shift.
HJ
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12hrs is not a 'normal' shift. In fact there isn't a standard shift system anymore. Different teams work different hours. I do a 4x4 pattern. Two days, two nights and then four days off. It's a great pattern and most Officers would love to work it.
As for the 'lorry driver' comment. I'm not continuously driving. I may be at an RTC or dealing with someone in custody. There's a world of difference.
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I wonder if this (BBC news link) tiny.cc/i1lbh will come out as driver fatigue too?
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>>I can't understand why more HGV drivers don't drop off after 4 - 6 hours. >>
Ah, HJ, never heard of the A14???
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When I worked in the Supermarkets, every so often I had to do a nightshift and the worst was always the first as I would have been up all day, not tired enough to take a nap, then onto a full nightshift working pretty physical work. I lived 30 mins from work.
I remember on one occasion dozing off at the wheel, a mile from my house and I woke due to my foot actually flooring the accelerator and making the car jolt. It fair wakes you up that!!!
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My personal experience is that irregular shipt patterns very quickly develop the ability to sit down and go to sleep anywhere anytime. The experience is from Navy "4 on 8 off" and "6 on 6 off (war watches)". And with "4 on 8 off" the 8 off includes time cleaning ship and the like - you only get to go to bed at night.
My father (Policeman for 30 odd years) and brother (Navy for 30 years) are similar and although both retired can still do it. The discipline is to take the chance to sleep.
Oddest thing was watching a beautiful sunrise one morning when working 6 on 6 off (having just got up), and eventually realising that the sun was going down, not up - I had come on watch at 6pm!
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I have colleagues who live in Devon, Liverpool, Bournemouth, Southampton, Wales, Northampton and one in Grettna Green. ALL drive home after two 15 hour night shifts with a nine hour break between the two. People from outside London join London Fire Brigade for two reasons, more job places than county brigades and the lucrative London weighting. Though much of that goes on travelling. We don't get free travelling in London like the Met and due to expensive train fares, many out of towners drive to and from their place of work to various places across Britain like those above.
Edited by spood on 20/05/2009 at 10:49
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the abolition of the 30 mile limit from Charing Cross for Met officers, coincided with a dramatic reduction in housing allowances, when the govt of the day changed the goal posts to save money. This meant, to afford the housing, the new officers lived much further away. Eventually there was a recruitment crisis, so in a different form the allowances were re-introduced, but at a lower level. More recently there's been an agreement with the train/bus companies for free travel up to 70 miles o/s of London ... which costs of course....so why fiddle with it in the first place. The free travel isn't as useful for shift workers, as the transport is understandably less available in the very early morning or very late at night.... and who wants to wait 2 hours for the first train after a long night shift...or finish 2 hours late after a late shift and find you can't get home until the morning.
many places have changed to shift patterns that are longer when you're at work, but give you more days off...which are popular with the staff...but...have their downsides, because if you do have to work overtime at the end e.g. an arrested prisoner, you're there for a very long time. Some places in the Met are moving away from these.
there's an increased management concern about 'how staff get home', because you can't ignore the fact somone might be dog tired..and you've caused it...particularly when workloads have dramatically increased, so being excptionally busy is more the norm.
some of my staff travel to NW London from the following: Bristol, Leicester, Cambridge. Two counties away is considered a 'breeze'.
Many, many other professions have people travelling long distances, but probably not after doing 12 hours+ through the night, when it's hectic.. and it gets worse the older you get!
Edited by Westpig on 20/05/2009 at 11:22
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Believe me I know and sympathise. I'm not disputing the post, I'm just saying that it affects people in my job too. I'm still operational, at 45, and it takes at least the second day off to get my sleep pattern back on track. And I live within the M25.
Edited by spood on 20/05/2009 at 14:58
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What I don't think has been mentioned yet, but how many of the police officers involved in crashes on the way home have been moonlighting.
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Doing a second job was raised in the recent case of the 'no siren or blue lights' policeman who knocked over and killed the young girl in Newcastle.
He had spent time in the hours leading up to the crash working with his brother at the electrical contracting company they jointly ran, Newcastle Crown Court was told.
London might be a different animal, but how anyone in the North East could be short of money on a copper's wage is beyond me.
It's also beyond me how someone who supposedly has a full-time job, well-paid by the taxpayer, has the time to do another.
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Well, I don't! 40+ hours per week plus two kids into football/cricket/running etc etc is more than enough.
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London might be a different animal but how anyone in the North East could be short of money on a copper's wage is beyond me. It's also beyond me how someone who supposedly has a full-time job well-paid by the taxpayer has the time to do another.
I'd agree with the above, apart from maybe the ridiculous price of houses in London and the SE. I'm not convinced many do 'moonlight' although there are some that register 'business interests' ...e.g. sports massage, driving instruction..that sort of thing. There aren't that many really though, as mlc says, working shifts and having kids is enough for anyone.
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WP,
You're in a much better position to judge the extent of moonlighting than me.
Those of us outside the job hear of a copper here or a copper there working on the side and it's then too easy to leap to the conclusion they are all at it.
Not that I would regard it as anyone's business if I wanted to take on evening or weekend work.
Do as I say, not as I do, there's a good chap. :)
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WP
Where I think you're based, and where I am based, our paths must of crossed at sometime, either on the A40 or in the surrounding area. Keep an eye out ;-)
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and where I am based our paths must of crossed at sometime either on the A40 or in the surrounding area. Keep an eye out
you're probably right... are you the tall dark handsome one that all my female staff swoon for?
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It is all down to what type of day you have had. Police officers are on the go all the time when on duty. Some days will be worst than others. After a couple of nightshifts for sure anyone will get tired. I recall many years ago working as an industrial radiographer the hours worked were always unsociable. You could be called on to work say dinner time till very early hours. always travelling in pairs to and from a job. I vividly remember one night coming back to base i was driving, we always used to ask each other if we were ok. This particular night i said yeah im fine 20 mins later on the motorway not a car in sight, i just fell asleep at the wheel instantly, my colleauge shouted and the situation was saved very scary indeed . I just started to drift across the lanes. Hence i can see exactly what they are saying in particular to the Police. If they have done long hours had a hard night not much sleep before and consecutive night working its so easy believe me. Keep safe everyone.
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