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I thought Kia is a Hyundai brand, who owns the Hyundai group of companies?
Edited by Old Navy on 20/11/2009 at 20:33
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Hyundai is a Chaebol (Korean Large Company)
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i think this discussion is too polarised. Both trad Euro boxes and new Eastern boxes are good products. And its also a bit simplistic to talk about Korean/Jap/Euro cars. They all share common parts/suppliers anyway.
I suspect the pricing will also quickly level out, if there is even any actual difference now. Jap cars were cheap once, now they are expensive. Go figure.
If we do assume the Koreans have an advantage, can anyone suggest how this has been achieved? I recall Japan's industrial leap was basically based on bullying the workforce and a unnatural loyalty to rebuilding the country post ww2. Have the Koreans a similar model, does that change the ownership experience?
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If we do assume the Koreans have an advantage, can anyone suggest how this has been achieved <<
Other than the purely economic advantage of lower wage costs in a society that spends relatively less on social welfare, you will find that 'up-and-coming' brands such as the Japanese in the 70's, Skoda in the 90's and now Kia/Hyundai all provided one thing:
Cars that people wanted, rather than cars the manufacturers wanted you to want, and value for money (real or perceived).
Once private buyers are happy to spend their hard-earned on a brand, you'll see company buyers taking them on which continues the sales performance. Doubt you'd have seen a 'company Skoda' until after the Fabia/Octavia/Superb became private buyer successes.
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Other than the purely economic advantage of lower wage costs in a society that spends relatively less on social welfare
The wage costs in South Korea these days are comparable with Western Europe if you include the employer costs for pension, health car etc. This is less the case in the deep south, but there is almost no infrastructure there. South Korea is also highly unionised and Kia was (and maybe still is) a right old money pit for Hyundai after they took it over to stop it going bust or falling into foreign hands.
Hyundai cleverly keep the true level of warranty and quality costs inside their network, but warranty costs was one of the things that eventually shafted Daewoo and Hyundai Motors are not very profitable. In 2008, before the crisis, they earned around 2% net profit. I sometimes have the feeling that car manufacture is a sort of expensive hobby for the Hyundai group as their core business is heavy engineering, ships and trains.
The Koreans are also very talented plagiarists. If you go to Seoul you can spend an entertaining time spotting all the blatant ripoffs of Western and Japanese cars which are not exported. My favourite was a model which I initially thought was a customised Mercedes S-Class W140 Coupe until I realised it was something quite amusingly different.
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Hyundai is a Chaebol (Korean Large Company)
Fascinating organisations Chaebols, usually highly diversified conglomerates with a 'family like' (sometimes literally) culture
However, my two-peneth on the OP's topic, I'm sure I read somewhere that VW when developing the Golf VI used the Kia Ceed as a benchmark alongside the Focus - implying (to me) that they see it as serious competition these days.
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As my family now own only Japanese and Korean cars, I would say yes, the Koreans have landed although nobody noticed who was under 65 until very recently.
The gap on performance, economy and technology has all but disappeared and yet you can buy say an i20 for about £1000 less than a Fiesta, but with a far superior warranty. Its no real wonder people buy Korean cars now, its only very misplaced prejudice that stops some people.
We have three Daihatsus though, the main reason being that they have actually become a budget brand, positioned under even Hyundai or Kia. My dad loves his Materia, my wife loves her Sirion, I think the world of my Charade and my mums Hyundai - its just clicked 50k and my mum has no plans on replacing it, she wont hear of it.
These are cars for people who want a car that just needs a service every year and thats all you have to think about. Its worth something even in this throw away age.
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....How did the Japanese gain an edge?....
When I worked at a proper garage in the late 1970s, those with more knowledge than me put it down to plagiarism.
Ford would presumably spend quite a lot of money developing, say, a new front suspension for the Escort, only for something eerily similar to turn up on a Toyota nine months later.
Coincidence? I think not.
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not sure they make cars people want. the cars are the same as any 5 door box on wheels. i think its the overall package people like, the low price and the long warranty being a major part of that
labour rates dont make much difference as the cars are made in the same places as the euro makers
Edited by nick1975 on 21/11/2009 at 08:02
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"Other than the purely economic advantage of lower wage costs"
The reason Kia produce in Slovakia is that wage costs there are 50% of those in Korea, and Hyundai in India because they are 20%
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well they havent landed here. I look down my road to find not a single korean car to be seen..
At the end of the day if you take total cost of ownership on a new car, they are as dear as any other car to run, not as well made or finished or reliable as the converts would have you believe, the warranty is a smokescreen, and for the most part, they are ugly.
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Indeed SsangYong make the ugliest cars of eVar in the Rodius.
But I think the Altea and Toledo are pretty fugly ;-)
Reliability of all cars with a few exceptions (VAG diesels have their critics) are good these days, and indeed all warranties have get-out clauses.
The sales figures don't lie (much) however, especially for private sales.
The Korean cars are not superior to Euro mainstream, but neither are they a generation behind (think Hyundai Pony vs. Mk3 Escort)
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Ugliness or not is in the eye of etc.
To me the Ceed especially in it's latest facelift form looks neat and refreshingly uncurvy compared to the latest euroblobs that seem to be subtly copying the appalling looking Brera.
The Santa Fe is very good looking for a hated 4x4.
We'll see just how good or bad the warranties and reliabilities are, so far there's a lack of evidence of Kia or Hyundai being quick to find get outs.
Plenty of threads showing regular faults on mainstream cars usually outside of warranty, doubtless the Korean cars are fewer in number so the law of averages may well apply, but nothing stands out in related fora either.
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We'll see just how good or bad the warranties and reliabilities are, so far there's a lack of evidence of Kia or Hyundai being quick to find get outs.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>correct me if im wrong gb but these read as twisted words to me
Kia and Hyundai are doing in house warranty work up to and beyond 5 years so why would they give figures to the media for faults whether common or not
stuff like this you keep under your coat as media coverage can kill a good seen brand in the eyes of the consumer,its a very very clever marketing tool by these manufacturers and i applaud them for their audacity in making it work to their advantages,as you say all we see are stuff like my clutch judders we dont see reams of my camshaft is broken and the "dealer dunt want to know"--------
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well here's a proven example
one month after buying the Rio i noticed a small amount of surface rust on the rear boot lid.
I took it back to the dealer and they were horrified and had never seen that before (i take that with a pinch of salt).
However, they had the car for three days and resprayed the boot lid and the surround without any questions or prompts from me.
As I was a bit concerned if the car had been sat in some field somewhere for a year, Kia phoned me (not the dealer) and told me that the car was manufactured in January (I purchased March 1st).
How is that for warranty and customer service ?
Never had that level of service from Vauxhall.
Edited by diddy1234 on 21/11/2009 at 11:28
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Never had that level of service from Vauxhall.
As someone who'll never buy a Vauxhall since my dire Vectra in 1996 I'd agree, however I haven't had any car that showed any sign of rust at all including stone chips since a 1991 Vauxhall Cavalier which like your Rio rusted in its first year and in fairness was repaired in a similar timely manner by Vauxhall.
I'd reject any car that rusted in the first month - period, wouldn't accept any kind of repair either. Perhaps you've reinforced my slight prejudice against Korean cars in you post though.
Edited by idle_chatterer on 21/11/2009 at 12:18
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why would they give figures to the media for faults whether common or notstuff like this you keep under your coat as media coverage can kill a good seen brand
Indeed BB, but they can't stop Mr Frustrated causing problems in various Fora with his Korean car that keeps breaking a whotsit and finding 20 other driver's with exactly the same fault chiming in....it hasn't happened so far which says much for long term reliability.
As you say good on them for spotting the yawning gap in the car market (with notable exceptions)...long term customer care and back up.
The camshaft fiasco being a fine example with other recent exposures (cracking wheels) showing the true power of t'net.
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Good news and bad news about our cars.
We were a two Hyundai family until recently. The Getz is fine and much loved by SWMBO.
No corrosion problems.
The Coupe exhaust fell off due to a corroded weld (16 months old), the rest of the exhaust (silver painted) and all visible bare metal parts also were heavily corroded. No question about replacing the rear exhaust section under warranty.
My car was the latest SIII coupe and so it can not have been hanging around for ages.
Put me on my guard and I now own an Octavia with an aluminised exhaust.
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Indeed lygnos, alteas and Toledos do have a stunningly ugly bum. Nice face tho.
The summary is I think that they are average cars ( in a an era where all average cars are dynamically good) and a cheap first time buy if you want new.
They are however nothing special so really nothing to write about.
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They are however nothing special so really nothing to write about.
Hmmm.
As against all those Ford, GM, VAG, PSA Fiat and Renault cars that are sooooo special.
This idea that there is some inherent superiority about bland European boxes is becoming more absurd by the year. The Seat Altea is JUST AS BLAND as any Korean car. In fact I've been rather disappointed by the newer Korean models; the formerly slightly off-wack design of previous models has been replaced by the usual identikit clone styling of the Eurobox in the newer cars. Dull dull dull.
If I'm going to buy a white good (which all these European lumps are) I'm damned if I'm going to pay more than I have to for one.
i30 or Alfa. Anything in the middle is a waste of time unless cheaper than the i30, and without the benefit of the warranty and better reliability than most of the European lump manufacturers'.
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well they havent landed here. I look down my road to find not a single korean car to be seen...
Hmmm interesting. Inspired by your straw poll and having nothing better to do this morning and by way of a change from "I spy" my son and I conducted the same survey on our road and the others we need to use to get to the main drag.
For reasons I am at a loss to explain, not one Korean car in evidence. They must live somewhere of course but not here for now.
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...I look down my road to find not a single korean car to be seen...
They are all at the dealers being (secretly) fixed.
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...I look down my road to find not a single korean car to be seen... They are all at the dealers being (secretly) fixed.
Or perhaps having a fun day out with all the money they saved on purchase price and fuel from the more efficient engines ;)
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Humph and ifit must live in areas of badge snobbery. :-)
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There's a 08 plate Magentis around the corner good looking car that tends to be overlooked, and several Rio's, Getz's and the like floating about in our 4 road loop too, no Ceeds yet...mainly retired and mature folk here, unfashionable just the way we like it.;)
By the way just got off the phone with son who's best mate has 2 Ceed's
Their own petrol hatch under 10K miles, his company Diesel estate well thrashed and getting up to his 40K annual mileage...apart from servicing nothing but praise to report.
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several Rio's, Getz's and the like floating about in our 4 road loop too
>>>>
>>>>> are you flooded there then
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>>>>> are you flooded there then
Not yet, but given the evidence (don't dare dispute it) elsewhere it's only a matter of time and it'll be my own fault.
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Two Ceed's, three when I get my Ceed SW, two Piccanto's, a Getz, and, an i10. It may be because of the nearby dealers.
Edited by Old Navy on 21/11/2009 at 15:39
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I was quite impressed with my brother's Cee'd, and he only got rid because of a pressing need for an auto.
Let down by harsh ride and slightly low rent dashboard and minor controls.
Gearstick position was still not quite right, although I've not looked at the facelifted car.
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Humph and ifit must live in areas of badge snobbery. :-)
Possibly ON, but I wouldn't have thought it was anything to do with badges. I could be wrong of course. Genuinely though, you really just don't see them much around here. There is though a KIA dealer only 5 or so miles away in the next town which has been there a good number of years so they must sell them.
Having said that, a lot of folk round here work for Bentley and take the option of a very favourable deal on VAG group cars. I think they have the option to sort of rent them at very good monthly rates. Loads of VWs, Skodas, SEATs and Audis around these parts as a result.
In my road starting from one end there are
A Vauxhall, a Mazda, a Citroen, an Audi, a BMW, a VW, a Ford, a Citroen, two SEATs, another VW, a Vauxhall, two Citroens, a Nissan, two Fords, an Audi, a Vauxhall, a Peugeot, a Lexus, a VW another Audi, another Nissan, two BMWs and two Fords.
Dunno if that's a typical spread but there it is.
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Arise Sir Lazarus ;-)
Rather than start a new thread thought I'd tack this on at the end:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/best_deals/item.htm?id=35929
Certainly shows a high level of confidence in their products, pricing, and ability to sell on 09-plate models to their growing customer base (read: private buyers looking for VFM).
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