Anyone with a recent VW should be very interested in tonight's Watchdog which highlights a major security problem affecting several models. Apparently VW and their dealers are aware of the problem but have been reluctant to take decisive action - where have we heard this before ?
The website is:
www.bbc.co.uk/watchdo g
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It's a very old story, carried in the column several years ago and which has also been in The Backroom. Use any key (doesn't have to be the key to the car) and turn the lock in the opposite direction and the windows open and the alarm sensor is de-activated. Prior to simply using any key in the lock itself. theives used to pop out the lock barrel with a screwdriver, then use that to turn the lock mechanism the opposite way. VW insisted that, from around 1999, on all its cars with keyfob operated alarm/immobilisers, the alarm could not be de-activated in this way, but VAG owners with remote keys can enlighten us if this is true.
HJ
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Don't doubt your word HJ but a mate of mine's just got a new Golf TDi to replace his Passat and this problem was totally new to him !
How do these companies get away with it ?
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There's a Watchdog report on Ceefax, page 628.
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When VW say that 'later' VWs aren't affected, what sort of year are we talking about? Then again, has anyone confirmed it?!
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Another sad VW Passat who parked his car for 20 Mins to come back and have the door lock removed and the windows left down. Does anybody no a cure to this problem which will make it more secure??? ie using rear door handles for example???
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Does anybody no a cure to this problem which will make it more secure??? ie using rear door handles for example???
Remove door trim and disconnect/cut the wires going to the door locks that control the window actuation, I would imagine.
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The window-opening via the key is not the major problem - the window opening/closing feature is actioned when the central locking has been actuated (normally via key or remote) and held for a couple of seconds... i.e. if the windows open, then the car is already unlocked.
The additional problem with earlier cars was that the alarm was easily bypassed also - as reported by HJ long time ago.
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Volkswagen (UK)
Yeomans Drive
Blakelands
Milton Keynes
MK14 5AN
Fax
To Brand Manager Jackie Grao From
Sales Manager Direct telephone
Direct fax
16 October 2002 Date
1 Pages
PL884/02 Our reference
Watchdog
In response to tonight’s episode of Watchdog, the following information can
be relayed to any customer queries:
For general security enquiries, advise that:
Unfortunately, no car is resistant to entry by the criminal. The information
provided in your vehicle’s handbook does warn about the dangers of leaving
valuable objects on display in cars.
If customers are concerned about the security of their vehicle, you can advise:
We take vehicle security very seriously. UK vehicle security consultants,
regarded by Volkswagen as some of the most experienced in the world, have
a direct influence on the design of our security systems.
You can offer reassurance to customers who are concerned about their Golf
that:
The current Golf has achieved a ‘Best Class’ rating in the ‘What Car?’ Security
Test two years running. However, no manufacturer would claim that its
vehicles are secure from forced entry by a determined criminal.
If customers want particular information on what Volkswagen are doing
about this, you can advise the following:
This is not a fault with the Golf. As soon as Volkswagen and the UK security
experts become aware of new methods of forced entry, provision is made to
develop measures to resist them. These measures are incorporated into new
Volkswagen models as soon as possible.
If customers ask why we do not make them aware of security issues, you can
advise the following:
To date it has been our policy not to advise owners when we learn of new
criminal methods to defeat vehicles security systems as we feel that this
would increase criminal activity rather then reduce it.
Please explain to customers that:
Although manufacturers have succeeded in making vehicles more resistant to
being stolen, it must still be assumed that thieves will always have ways of
entering vehicles by force.
Regards
Jackie Grao
Customer Care Manager
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Hmmm... Not sure the method HJ described can really be called 'force' can it ?
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Volvoman asks... How do these companies get away with it? ......because of the ignorance of the general car buying public. Security is not sexy - people generally do not realise how much car crime costs the nation or adds to their insurance policy. Safety has become sexy recently, and it is sexy that sells cars. Witness all those drop-dead-georgous girls draped over the cars at motor shows and models dropping their knicks out the window in TV ads. People generally do not know what questions to ask of dealers to determine how secure their prospective vehicle is. www.ncsr.co.uk are starting to change this.
Gordon A asks.... what sort of year are we talking about?? .... basically post 1999 to 2001 depending on model. If you look at www.ncsr.co.uk this covers the latest models only and the 2001 MY onwards are quite good. Strangely enough neither the new nor old Golf is listed here.
In my opinion VWs statement comes right off the cow shed floor - OK it contains some relevant facts, but like lies & statistics....well, you know the song. It should achieve its objective of fobbing off all but the most persistent or knowledgeable customer.
VW say......no car is resistant to entry by the criminal? ......well, actually it is or rather it can be. This statement isn't false as such, but it needs qualifying big style. "You were only supposed to blow the b***** doors off"...if Michael Caine's trying to get your car, then sure nothing short of a Sherman is going to put up sufficient resistance. On the other hand if it's just some 14 year old yob with a brick trying to grab your handbag then it's easy to keep him out with strong locks, superlocking and laminated side glass (LSG side windows are available now on many cars as an option).
VW says......However, no manufacturer would claim that its vehicles are secure from forced entry by a determined criminal? .......like the comment above it's to do with degrees of determination. Most thefts from cars are opportunists looking for easy targets. Making your model of car moderately secure will put off most of those committing these crimes simply because committing the crime takes longer and increases the likelihood of being caught.
VW say.....security consultants, regarded by Volkswagen as some of the most experienced in the world? ..... oh dear oh dear. This is probably perfectly true here in 2002, but was clearly not the case in the 90s when these cars were developed & built. For reasons I'll explain later VW were obviously behind the times back then.
VW say......The current Golf has achieved a 'Best Class' rating in the 'What Car?' Security Test two years running? .......This may well be perfectly true as it stands, but as I understand it we are not talking about the current Golf and in any case this says nothing about other models.
VW say......As soon as Volkswagen and the UK security experts become aware of new methods of forced entry, provision is made to develop measures to resist them? .... think of a phrase involving horses and stable doors. Notice here too, how VW are trying to shift the blame very subtly away from themselves and onto the "UK security experts". I believe the UK security experts that VW are referring to are the engineers at the insurance industries research establishment at Thatcham. Let me tell you that these people have been researching car security for many many years. In the very early 90s Thatcham issued a standard for car security which could be used as a means of assessing a cars security system. It gave points for different features around the vehicle, the maximum available being 1000. Thatcham would assess cars and give them a score - this would then go toward other factors used in determining the cars overall insurance group rating and good or poor scores could tip the balance where a car was otherwise borderline between two groups. Thatcham along with Scotland Yard were only too happy to liaise with car manufacturers to educate engineers into the thieves methods and help to develop a secure vehicle. This was of course a two way process because Thatcham engineers will have picked up ideas from OEM engineers too.
For example Rover Group engineers developing the New Range Rover in the early 90s (launched late '94) liaised with Thatcham and Scotland Yard with the express aim of making the NRR the most secure vehicle on the road at launch (it ended up a very close second). Some of the ideas & technology also came from the lock and electronics suppliers. For example this vehicle has strong door locks mounted in metal casings with strengthening in the door panel - all designed to resist "screwdriver attack" as it was known. The free motion on the lock linkages was transferred to the latch (from the lock) which in turn had superlocking. The cars immobiliser could only be released by the remote control (NOT the central locking) which in turn had a sophisticated rolling code algorithm. The steering column lock was exceptionally strong and the ignition barrel pointed downwards toward the door to prevent slide hammering through the window aperture (remember the doors had superlocking). The list goes on and on, but the point is this: the knowledge and technology was in existence so either VW were ignorant of the problem of car theft and its solutions or they made a deliberate (marketing) decision not to make their cars more secure. Of course, they're not likely to admit to either of these accusations.
Funny coincidence: the same supplier who supplied the locks & remote technology to NRR also supplies the same products to OEMs such as Volvo, BMW, Mercedes and (surprise, surprise) VW/Audi. So really there can be no excuse for ignorance on VWs part.
VW says......that thieves will always have ways of entering vehicles by force? .......Jackie Grao must have taken lessons from Cybil Fawlty in "stating the bleedin' obvious". This is not however an excuse for the poor performance of the VW products in question. Ultimately, if the vehicle is very secure and a professional thief wants it all he has to do is use a flat bed with a crane to carry it away (they do actually do this, apparently) or he could mug you for your keys. The point is that making vehicles decently secure cuts car crime dramatically because most of it is carried out by relatively young men using unsophisticated means. Professional thieves are a small proportion.
There is no excuse for putting a car on the market which can have its contents stolen in a mere 10 seconds - it soon becomes a regular target for the mindless scum.
Disclaimer: this post represents the personal views of Cyclone Cyd and makes no claims to represent the views of any other organisation or person including HJ himself or others. Any similarity to real people or events is purely coincidental and Al Quieda planted no semtex in this message. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to pretend you never saw this.
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I take it your message will self destruct in 5 seconds Cyd !
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You mention in backroom and also review of MK IV 's that not all models can be opened by "just inserting any key and turning it backwards"
You mention that higher models may not be effected. ?
I have Mk IV Golf purchased March 2002 with remote fob .. only keyhole is on drivers side... which i have never needed to use..
Is my model likely to be effected ?
I would consider entry with screwdriver to be classed as "forced entry" but not so if imobilser can be de-activated by simply inserting any key and turning it backwards.
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P.S. I should have said mine is a SE model .
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If my memory serves me right Audis also have this problem
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Please, lets get some proper feedback from VW and Audi owners, preferably those with two. Does the key for the wrong car open the windows of the other car or not?
HJ
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I've just tried my brothers key from his 02 Polo TDi Sport in my 02 Polo S SDi and the key won't even turn. I'll also try our keys in my cousins Seat Ibiza Cupra as his car has VW locks etc fitted to it.
I think that the idea of the windows going up when the doors are locked is a good one, but winding the windows down when unlocking is a daft one.
Ash.
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I bought a Ford Fiesta (2001 model) because Fiesat security is much better than carpy VW Golfs/Polos and Audis.
Any car whose lock can be forced by the screwdriver trick is unsafe. ALL VWs/AUDIs are. Full stop - up to A4s .
Funnily enough a key after market accessory for Golf owners in the US in the 1980s was an armoured plate to fit on Golf (Rabbit in US) doorlocks to prevent this.
Peugeot are just as bad. New BMWs are OK. Pre 1999 E36 and earlier are as bad as Peugeot . (I know I had one broken into)
My view is that the UK car insurance industry should EXCLUDE claims for these cases under cover to force manufacturers to improve it.
Trouble is UK has worst car crime in Europe. Why? Co we don't catch the barstewards who do it or let them off too lightly...
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Just tried the trick on a Skoda Superb and it doesn't work (by which I mean it doesn't open all the windows and switch off the alarm sensor). Surely, between us, we can list which VAG models are affected and which aren't.
HJ
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98R Polo key in a 2000W Golf. The key enters into lock fully but doesn't have any effect.
C
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We have a 2000(March) VW Polo and 2001(September) Passat. Both keys will go into each others' lock but neither will turn in each others' lock.
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