The Auris wasn't 'only a facelift'. I've owned a 2006 Corolla and now have the 2009 Auris. Since when have facelifts: been physically bigger in length, width and height; had a different floorpan - the rear floor is almost flat comparer to the Corolla; had totally different interiors; had a larger boot; had a different bodyshell with three windows along the side rather than two (quarterlight type , front door, rear door); had different front doors; etc.
Yes the Auris could have sold better and been better promoted. The new 1.33 with stop start system and six speed gearbox is excellent.
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There's a known problem with the Verso brake discs, in that they are prone to scoring. This has affected mine and will be sorted out under warranty. Took it to the local Toyota dealer - no quibbles or arguments - seems like good customer service so far. Looks like the accelerator pedal on my car isn't affected.
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Is that Corolla Verso, bristol01, or the current Verso?
HJ
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Ok guys ask yourselves this question.
1/ How many incidents of jamming throttles has there been?
2/ How many toyota have been produced?
3/ How many accidents have been caused by people unfit to drive autos?
Now I bet that 1 is minute compared to 2 and 3
I also know what country most of 3/ come from but it seems this is a comment thats not allowed on this site.
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Yes, one must expect to lose a few people/children every now and then........
I think not!
I have experienced a self accelerating Corsa D diesel and it is not something I wish anyone to have to experience.
I have also experience a failed throttle sensor on a VAG car while overtaking. Again - brown pants time when 3/4 through the manouever all power dies. Had it not been for no close oncoming traffic and an understanding white van man (yes there is such a thing!!), I think I would, today, be just a statistic.
I was fortunate....How many "driver error" fatalities may actually be down to technical faults?
I think twice before overtaking in a fly by wire car nowadays.
Black boxes needed in all cars to get to the truth - opposed by manufacturers as it may show some ugly things about their cars.
Not a common problem - but does anyone need to die?
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I was fortunate....How many "driver error" fatalities may actually be down to technical faults?
one is too many in my eyes, but im sure the real number is much higher.
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>>but does anyone need to die?
That's an odd way to phrase it.
However, it's not as though control failures are purely the preserve of modern cars. Older cars would go to full throttle if the return spring on the throttle failed - and they did!
While there are problems, in general, modern systems are more likely to be duplex or dual circuit.
The only way to acheive zero deaths is to take every vehicle off the road. Like it or not, we must accept some risk, and so, yes, it's inevitable, some will die.
Edited by Number_Cruncher on 30/01/2010 at 23:08
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In the case of the VAG throttle sensor - it is a dual track sensor - and in my case a momentary disagreement (intermittent) lead to a default zero setting in the ECU. I could reset it only by switching off the engine and restarting.
The problem is the software - I am sure it could have easily had restored the throttle when I moved the throttle and the two tracks agreed again. It could even have used an average of the two tracks during the intermittent period.
Failing throttle sensors are fairly common on the forum I frequent regarding this car and the software response is just not thorough enough - there are way safer strategies IMO
Springs dont fail anywhere as often as throttle sensors!
I am 100% if this happened on a busy trunk road, when you have fast oncoming traffic and following traffic that closes the gap quickly - I would have had a head on (and probably fatal) collision.
>>Like it or not, we must accept some risk, and so, yes, it's inevitable, some will die.
I'm glad you dont work in the aircraft industry!!
Edited by brum on 30/01/2010 at 23:32
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>>there are way safer strategies IMO
Yes, I think you might be right - although it's not straightforward to decide what the right strategy would be - which of the tracks would you believe? If you took the average, and the driver wanted the car to slow down, the driver would then be suggesting that the safer strategy would be for the engine to return to idle.
>>Springs dont fail anyware as often as throttle sensors!
I'm not so sure.
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>>Springs dont fail anyware as often as throttle sensors! I'm not so sure.
In that case they should use 2 springs surely? ;)
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>>Springs dont fail anyware as often as throttle sensors! I'm not so sure.
I am. Throttle cables sticking, broken return springs, butterlies sticking.
There were many more failures of mechanical throttles.
As for "thinking twice about overtaking" becuase of failing components, words fail me.
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>>Springs dont fail anyware as often as throttle sensors!I'm not so sure.
I am sure - we sell more of each type of sensor, air mass, crank / cam position, knock, throttle position, etc, than we ever sold throttle springs, throttle cables, carb butterfly repair kits etc.
in the old days, even if a throttle spring did break most butterflies would close up when you released the pedal, the mere push of airflow against the butterfly did that, built in failsafe as it were.
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I'm glad you dont work in the aircraft industry!!
Most pilots are capable of handling mechanical failure---- without fear of flying.
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>>I'm glad you dont work in the aircraft industry!!
Why?, because I mention an unpalatable truth? You're not going to like this, but, it's inevitable that people will die flying too.
I did quite a bit of work on some safety critical systems for A380, and I imagine that before very much longer, I'll be working on some other aircraft systems. Be afraid Brum, be very afraid!!
It's one of my prouder achievements that I diagnosed and found a safety critical fault on the system I was working on for A380, and prevented it from reaching the production line - we had to design a retrofit solution for the first few proto-type planes which had been built.
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I did quite a bit of work on some safety critical systems for A380 and I imagine that before very much longer I'll be working on some other aircraft systems. Be afraid Brum be very afraid!!
I sometimes worry about your ego NC
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It's one of my prouder achievements that I diagnosed and found a safety critical fault on the system I was working on for A380 and prevented it from reaching the production line - we had to design a retrofit solution for the first few proto-type planes which had been built.
Yes, I always thought that the initial plan for only two engines was a little ambitious ;-)
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Most pilots are capable of handling mechanical failure---- without fear of flying.
What about electronic failure? What about Air france flight 447? Smart software/smart design?
If you think its enough to just sit back and say we've done enough then I say thats a negligent approach.
Any that is why Toyota are doing this recall.
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Any that is why Toyota are doing this recall.
To put it bluntly they have announced a recall because the few % off their share price and negative PR caused by announcing the recall is preferable to the more substantial damage to their share price and reputation that a number of serious accidents would cause.
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Couldn't just be because they are a responsible company of good reputation and don't take their customers for granted i suppose?
Every time they have a problem they put their hands in their pockets and do take action for their customers peace of mind...Avensis petrol engine oil consumption and Diesel engine head gasket problems became apparent, they extended warranty for the affected vehicles and will renew complete engines if needed.
This is in complete contrast to certain other maker's products that fail outside normal warranty where the customer is left to his own fate unless he kicks up enough legally.
Toyota's arn't the most exciting/fashionable vehicles in the world but customers know the maker will stand by their product.
Edited by gordonbennet on 31/01/2010 at 10:02
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looks like this old duffer aint as senile as was thought
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8488377.stm
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For those who may be interested.
In one case the floor mats were discounted because they were in the boot.
www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/business/01toyota.html?...p
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Sorry to quibble with Avant but the Latin for 'crown' is 'corona'; 'corolla' means 'garland' - and by extension it gets its botanical usage as the collective term for the petals of a flower.
'Auris' does indeed mean 'ear', although I imagine someone was aiming at an association with 'aurum' for 'gold'.
}:---)
As for the recall, as a Toyota owner, I'm reassured that the company is standing by its products. I can't work out whether our Corolla Verso is affected, or whether the problem affects diesel versions as well as petrol. But it's not a situation that's keeping me awake at night.
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One thing I am slightly amused by is that one of the few Toyota models unaffected is the Prius - the car that so many were concerned about unreliability due to all that complicated electronics, including the "fly-by-wire" accelerator pedal.
As I said at the time - all cars are full of electronic gubbins these days, and there was no reason to think the Prius any more likely to have such a problem.
Only "recall" for the Prius that I, er, recall, was actually mechanical - for a weak steering linkage.
(Okay, this post is a slightly cheap shot, but I couldn't resist).
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Couldn't just be because they are a responsible company of good reputation and don't take their customers for granted i suppose?
Well it says in one broadsheet newspaper that Toyota knew there was a problem with the accelerators sticking in the UK a year ago, so they haven't been exactly quick to recall!
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Well it says in one broadsheet newspaper that Toyota knew there was a problem with the accelerators sticking in the UK a year ago so they haven't been exactly quick to recall!
But how long does it take to diagnose the problem, find a solution, design a fix, prove it works, and produce millions of repair kits for dozens of different models?
Edited by Old Navy on 02/02/2010 at 15:57
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But how long does it take to diagnose the problem find a solution design a fix prove it works and produce millions of repair kits for dozens of different models?
The answer to the question seems obvious - a year! Especially when you need to prove the fix works, and you need to produce millions of repair kits for dozens of different models.
Give Toyota their due for responding both publicly and quickly, when compared to other manufacturers, who try as hard as they can to wriggle out of these recalls.
I never experienced the issue in my previous Corolla (had this for three years from new), and certainly haven't with the Auris I bought new in October 2009. Both of these models are affected by the recall.
None of this would deter me from buying another Toyota - in fact, we shall probably replace our 2007 Mazda 2 this year, with a Toyota (which, if we do, will be our fifth new Toyota). The reason we shall not be buying another Mazda, is partly due to poor customer service from Mazda UK and the dealer, and partly due to build quality.
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Give Toyota their due for responding both publicly and quickly when compared to other manufacturers who try as hard as they can to wriggle out of these recalls.
What you mean like not recall for a year?
There may have been only a small percentage of incidents v numbers sold, but when the consequences are as serious as they have been, it cannot be dismissed lightly. I think that is why Toyota's response is under investigation in the USA. It will be interesting to see the results of that.
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Its serious because certain drivers are incapable dealing with anything out of the norm. Seriously some drivers are not fit to have a driving license.
No-one has been killed in the UK, and the "deaths" in the states are mostly due to aged drivers of autos who dont know one foot from the other so find it easy to blame toyota.
Toyota have been pretty blameless in this, and any attempt to prove otherwise is frankly criminaly misleading.
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Seriously some drivers are not fit to have a driving license.
Quite a lot actually.
Is this a fly-by-wire pedal? One would think so. And are all the Citroens and other cars being hastily recalled for the same thing using a similar arrangement to Toyota's?
I agree with AE about hopeless wimpish car users but suspect we would disagree about flimsy insufficiently-developed unnecessarily roundabout technical developments in automobile engineering. That said, this kerfuffle reminds me a bit of the schweinhundflu thing.
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No-one has been killed in the UK
Please can you tell us your authorative source of information? I find it hard to believe there have been no fatalities involving a Toyota car over the last year.
Whether the UK investigates fatal accidents to the level of an intermittent accelerator pedal is open to debate.
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Hiya Brum, what planet floating over the UK do you inhabit?
1/ Have you never ever heard of all the motorway and road closures to investigate road deaths? Its a crime scene. Of course the root cause is established, someone needs to egt blamed.
2/ Vosa have been informed about 12 incidents about unintended acceleration. Nonce resulted in deaths.
More people get killed by electricity than by toyota throttles. YOu want all the electricity recalled?
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Snip.. link to the Times removed - site policy. It was to an article on that family in a Lexus where they could not stop and ended in tragedy. Sure people can find it.
A similar version is here:
www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=5339215&fS...1
I suppose if it were your family Alterego you'd just say - useless driver or some other heartless comment?
"Toyota has admitted to knowing of 26 incidents involving defective pedals in Europe"
Edited by rtj70 on 04/02/2010 at 18:33
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How long does it take to diagnose the problem, find a solution,design a fix prove it works .
Along time in Honda's case with the notchy gearbox on the CRV.
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I would help if you reported all it said in that paper.
They did say there had been the huge total of 28, they were monitoring it and the problem seemed to go away.
This has been blown out of all proportion.
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Was there for some reason a fault with the brake pedal on these cars which must have occured at EXACTLY the same time as the alledged acceletor fault.
Or was it the usual "driver error" generating the usual fateous excuses
scheesh
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Apologies HJ, I only just picked this up. I have a 58 plate Corolla Verso, and the problem has been discussed on the Toyota Owners' Club forum for the Verso. The discs on the nearside wheels have scored.
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The Verso models affected are those made between Feb 2009 and Jan 2010.
Toyota have now published what the fix is and are starting to receive parts to fit.
Whatcar online have a good page on this in the news section.
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But to me the Verso information is ambiguous. 2009 was when the Verso became a model in its own right; before that it was a derivative of the Corolla, and that is listed as being affected back to 2005. Since I don't suppose Toyota sourced a different accelerator component just for the Corolla Verso, I'll be surprised if the recall doesn't apply to some Corolla Versos too.
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I follow your logic wilde - as such a fair assumption would be that Corolla Versos are affected if built between October 06 and Dec 09.
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According to the BBC the recall could cost $2bn due to lost output and sales! And the recall is millions of cars.
And we know PSA are recalling some 107s and C1s too for obvious reasons.
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Snip... link posted to an article in the Times which the publishers on here do not allow.
It was a story about a family killed in the US whilst driving a Lexus as a hire car. Very tragic. Sure members can find said story.
Edited by rtj70 on 03/02/2010 at 01:09
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I read on the Toyota website this morning:
"We are waiting for further information on which vehicles specifically are affected.
"We will be making a VIN / Registration look up function available shortly."
Hopefully that will make things a bit clearer.
I share WilllDeBeest's concern that pre Feb 09 Versos might well be affected.
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Brum
That was *potentially* caused by sticking floor mats.
Funny how he had loads of time to talk to people on his mobile phone, yet not think logically enough to handle or resolve the situation.
What I really think is funny, is all these people who bought toyotas probably because they insisted it was the most reliable make around, are now berating toyota for attempted murder, when really they are no worse than any other maker and trying to handle this better than most.
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If you bother to read the article it states that the passenger made the 911 call.
Fortunately more learned men than you or I will decide what the cause was and hopefully the entire industry, not just Toyota, will wake up and pay more attention to safety issues in all areas.
At the moment, the attitude of a lot of industry, including so it seems Alter Ego, seems to be that nothing needs to be done until a number of fatalities and/or serious injuries have occurred. Being a small number compared to the millions sold is not an excuse.
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you need a job on a newspaper brum, druming up news and panic.
Tell you what the first thing we need to do is ban electricity. that kills loads of people.
Start there.
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Tell you what brum, as you are convinced the car makers are out to kill you, sell your car. Travel by public transport.
Freedom of choice and all that.
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Brum I shall be charitable
What woudl you want Toyota to do? lets say they have made 1.5 million cars in the uk that could be affected
Where do you get 1,5 million spare parts from? it takes time
where do you find 1,5 million hours to fit them? 1,5 million service bays, 1,5 million mechanics? can only be done over time.
courtesy cars? where do you ind 1,5 million hire cars.
At what point do you decide to recall 1,5 milion cars? after the first one in 1,5 million failures? two in 1,5 million? 26 in 1,5 million?
you want a car that has tripple safety mechanisms? as in aircraft? that means your car will cost a minimum of £30,000 not £8,000. you want that?
you know the main cause of failures in cars that kill people? Drivers. You know the main cause of deaths in aircraft accidents? People.
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Brum I shall be charitable
Thats very generous of you.
For starters Lexus should replace software driven Start/Stop buttons with a real switch.
alturl.com/ga4e
Yes, I do want seatbelts, I do want airbags, I do want good crash test results, and yes I accept I have to pay for them.
Had toyota not dragged their heels and pretended there wasnt a problem for over a year, their costs wouldnt escalated to the point they have now.
We will all pay for this anyway - increased cost of a Toyota, insurance for the car industry etc etc.
Last comment as I know Alter Ego wont discuss anything but his point of view.
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I guess providing some possible solutions for my specific questions was too much for you.
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Toyota are updating information regularly.
Manual Aygos (and therefore C1s and 107s) are not affected as they use throttle by cable systems and have a different type of pedal.
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In a weird way this crisis is a 'plus' for Toyota if one bears in mind that other manufacturers have refused to recall cars for known safety problems - I can think of two widely publicised incidences.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 04/02/2010 at 10:33
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In a weird way this crisis is a 'plus' for Toyota if one bears in mind that other manufacturers have refused to recall cars for known safety problems - I can think of two widely publicised incidences.
It doesn't look like a plus from where I'm sitting, bearing in mind 99% of the motoring public don't know of other manufacturers cover ups but read daily of recalls, large losses, falling sales, withdrawal form F1....................
Ripe for a take over IMO
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And there is more . .
www.nytimes.com/2010/02/04/business/global/04toyot...h
Are you sure they are any better than the rest?
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...In a weird way this crisis is a 'plus' for Toyota...
The front page lead in the Daily Mail today is headlined:
'Don't Drive Your Toyota'
I don't think anyone at Toyota will see that as a plus, weird or otherwise.
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The front page lead in the Daily Mail today is headlined: 'Don't Drive Your Toyota'
Good to see that the Daily Mail has got things in proportion again. If we believed everything on its front page we'd all have emigrated long ago, or would never get out of bed.
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Good to see that the Daily Mail has got things in proportion again. If we believed everything on its front page we'd all have emigrated long ago or would never get out of bed.
It's Sunday stablemate has been running stories about the Court of Protection. It's underlying function has been exercised by the state since at least medieval times. The whole thing was portrayed as a NuLab conspiracy against the family.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 04/02/2010 at 22:30
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I agree with sofa - when this is all finished and put to bed, most owners will have been initially upset (and rightly so), then they will experience the free bottle of wine and £10 of petrol for the inconvenience which will soften the blow, then they will be confident their car has been repaired properly and is in good working order again. They will look back and then think it was not so bad as the press made it out to be.
Then the next problem will be made public from another car maker (and they know they will have their time), it will be all over the headlines followed by comparisons between how Toyota treats customers and how others try and ignore them.
As for Toyota being ripe for take over - well IMO - there is no chance of that - I would suggest that people really do not understand this company if they believe that. The profits they generated for the last Qtr alone will pay for the recall - they will probably finish the year making profits in the Billions of Dollars.
They are a very long term company and whilst this is not good news in any way at the moment they are masters at turning this type of stuff around and using it as an opportunity.
In addition to this I have already started to see reports of mis-statements etc.
Edited by OmNo on 04/02/2010 at 18:03
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...If we believed everything on its front page we'd all have emigrated long ago...
OK, no Toyotas have been recalled, there is no safety issue, owners should drive on regardless, the stupid Daily Mail's got it wrong again.
And if any other messengers come around here, they will also be shot.
Suggested headline for tomorrow:
'Do Drive Your Toyota - Straight Into The Car In Front'
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This link explains exactly what the throttle problem is and shows how a dealer will fix it with step by step pics... very interesting.
www.autoblog.com/2010/02/04/toyota-dealer-shows-us.../
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Well it must be pretty big - tonight's The One Show kicked off with the editor of What Car summarising the situation (in a relatively non-sensationalist manner to be fair) live from a Toyota showroom.
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Well today I got hauled in by ITN to talk about this. They filmed me in the street to edit later and run on the 18.30 and 22.00 news. I got back just in time to watch the 18.30 news and found, as often happens (and as I accept), that my bit had got bounced by a later bit where some lawyer had said that Toyotas with the problem would not be insured. The ABI then responded by saying they would be insured. So let's see what runs later on.
There is another American blog heavily critical of the pedal assemblies and the Toyota fix, but so much of this stuff is calculated to press the panic button that I'm not going to offer the link and spread the panic. To get things into proportion, before the Toyota recall news broke, I'd had 50 reader complaints about the TEVES Mk 60 ABS unit fiasco on VAGs, BMWs, Volvos and Mazdas, and just one complaint of a sticking accelerator pedal on a Toyota.
HJ
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OK no Toyotas have been recalled there is no safety issue owners should drive on regardless the stupid Daily Mail's got it wrong again.
Well, the US Transportation Secretary who the Mail were quoting later agreed to retract his words, saying that they were a 'mis-statement'. I wonder if there will be a similar retraction in the Wail? I won't hold my breath...
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