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VAG diesels will run to starship mileages if you buy the right one and maintain it properly. Doing both of these things is not as easy as it might seem.
The pre-PD diesels were reliable but are all getting too old now. The economy was excellent but they lack the power of the PD units.
The best PD units are mid-period 1.9s with solenoid injectors. Avoid the later piezo injector engines and avoid the 2.0 PD at all costs because of the likelihood of oil pump drive failure - especially in N-S installations. The earliest PD engines had a rather complex and flaky fuel cooling system which is also better avoided.
The best vintage PD is probably an '04 1.9 130 (AWX) - the 150 HP units are not as reliable and don't actually go much better.
All PD engines require oil to VAG spec. 505.01 (fixed servicing) or 507.00 (variable). Camshaft wear will be the result of variations from this spec. - although the fully-synth 507.00 is fine for both, but a little more expensive. There is a general consensus, which I share, that variable servicing is not good for engine wear unless operated under the most favourable conditions - which few are.
I change the 507.00 oil in my AWX every 7k miles. So far, very good.
The latest CR engines run very nicely and are smoother than the PDs (but without the "shove") but I am beginning to hear of far too many (piezo again) injector failures and HP pump failures. Best avoided for now unless under warranty. The beauty of the PD system is that the highly stressed pump plunger followers are oil rather than fuel lubricated. It makes a considerable difference.
659.
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Thanks 659,
I can't really afford a c.04 A6 so might go for a 03/04 Passat 130 pd tdi. How do I know which ones have solenoid and which piezo? I'm also going to look at a pre PD 115bhp A6 Avant, fsh with 130,000 miles. Probably its best I drive a Passat PD and the older A6 to see which I prefer.
Even though the prePD is older, as it's simpler is likely to be more reliable and be better to a higher mileage?
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An '03/4 Passat 130 would be a good choice - right fuel system with solenoid injectors. I'm not sure when they changed but it was later - probably '05/6.
Once you've driven a PD engined vehicle, you would not be happy with a vehicle of similar weight but fitted with the earlier engine - it just doesn't have the grunt.
I would favour the (right) PD engine in terms of reliability over the earlier engines with rotary (VE) pumps. The PD system is in essence very simple but needs careful maintenance in terms of timing drive replacement and the use of the correct engine oil. Do this, and they last very well.
If you're in the market for a saloon, have you looked at the old Skoda Superb (nee Passat)? They all have PD engines (the 4 cyl diesels) and offer more legroom and better equipment per unit cost than the Passat. Mine goes well - but there was a narrow window in time between getting folding rear seats and the 1.9 AWX (rather than the hopeless 2.0) engine - so if you want one of those you'll have to look.
I did, and I'm pleased with it.
659.
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Hello 659, I have a 55 Skoda Superb with a 130PD 1.9 diesel engine, coming up 5 years old with 110K on the clock. I have always been on the variable service regime with my local Skoda dealer. It seems to ask for service approx every 17K or so. They use the fully synthetic oil and that is what I top up with occasionally. I am very happy with the dealer and the car runs like a sewing machine. They tell me they service many cars with extremely high mileages, which is encouraging. My mileage is 90% motorway at about 2 to 2.5K revs returning over 50mpg. I never do short journeys and keep tyre pressures right. I am hoping to run the car until it drops, hopefully at least 3 more years until I retire. By then it should have about 200K on the clock. Some of your comments were encouraging, some worrying. Do you think I can improve my chances of keeping the car running by doing anything differently? I am so happy with this car, I am able to transport 3 6'5' 125Kg rugby players plus my not inconsiderable frame in extreme comfort with legroom to spare. Not many cars in this price range, or above, can do that with ease. Your comment would be appreciated. All the best. Concrete
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Greetings, Concrete. I would say your Superb is one of the few which is suited to the VAG variable servicing regimen - so carry on as long as you use and top up with VAG spec 507.00 oil.
These cars will run to starship mileages but make sure the plenum chamber drain bungs are removed and that the outer pollen filter holder seal is replaced with mastic strip as per the VW branded TSB. Failure to do this will result in costly rainwater ingress.
You could also consider removing the upper suspension ball joints' pinch bolts and greasing them thoroughly before they rust in and become a problem. These cars will usually outrun a set of front suspension arms and the consequences of rusted bolts here are very high labour costs. Removing and greasing the bolts takes 10 mins per side if they are not stuck.
The 1.9 AWX is a peach of an engine in terms of performance and economy - but not the smoothest. In a big chassis like the Superb with high gearing, it's OK and makes a great motorway cruiser. I got a genuine (not trip computed) 53 mpg on my last run from London to Birmingham with the cruise set at 76 (indicated) mph. The car was fully loaded one way.
Not many vehicles can match this with the advantages of genuine legroom and low first cost.
659.
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Hello 659FBE, sorry I am late in replying, I have been working in Scotland for the past week or so. Thanks for the re-assurance and the useful information. The car is going into my local Skoda dealer for an MOT in 2 weeks and I will mention your suggestions and get a quote from them. So far they have been very good and their labour rates are very fair. Also if they do it you can bank some goodwill for the future, this has already proved the case after 5 years of steady service and repairs they have performed small operations free of charge, which is quite nice. I agree the 1.9PD 130 does sound like a bag of hammers at tickover but once on the move it is great to drive. The worst sound is the fan on the climate control unit, I was told 2 years ago it sounded like it was on the way out but it is still whiring away although quite loud when stood at lights etc. I expect the fan will pack in one day but 5 years of service is not bad. I have thought of replacing the car but cannot justify the money and possibly end up with an inferior car so roll on 'starship' mileage, to boldly go where no car has been before!! Regards Concrete.
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I hope you don't need the upper ball joint doing: budget around £450 - £500 per side if it does.
It's one of those jobs that's worth having a VW / Audi dealer quote you on: when my Passat B5.5 needed it doing, the main dealer's price for the job was actually cheaper than a local trusted independent.
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' I'm also going to look at a pre PD 115bhp A6 Avant, fsh with 130,000 miles. '
If its 115 bhp it will be a PD engine, should have 85Kw on the printed sheet in the service book or spare wheel well.
The PD engines came in 100, 115, 130 & 150bhp .
The pre PD engine was 110bhp.
The 115 may be a bit underpowered in such a big car but a test drive will resolve the question for you.
It can of course be chipped to 150 or thereabouts.
Deffinately hold out for the PD engine, as 659 says, it is a peach.
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Hi dieselnut,
It's an 'X' plate pre-facelift. I didn't realise the PD engine came in before the facelift model.
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BTW if it is a PD it will be an early one and 659 cautioned against buying one of this age.
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My son had an X reg Passat & that had the 115 PD engine & was the best of the 4 Passat's the family have owned.
This engine will have the slightly dubious fuel cooling system so possibly not the best choice, but if that is your budget it is at least a PD engine.
You will of course get better value for money with a Passat or Skoda.
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Thanks,
Is the fuel cooling system expensive to replace on the earlier PD engines if it goes wrong?
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I don't know about cost, we never had a problem with ours.
There is a small heat exchanger so would imagine no change out of at least £250 plus an hour or so labour.
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Thaks 659FBE. Very useful information. I've put it in the relevant A3, A4, Golf, Octavia and Leon entried in Car by car Breakdown where it will be of benefit to all comers.
HJ
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Does the oil pump drive problem actually affect the version of the 2.0 PD fitted to the Octavia/Golf/A3/Leon though?
I looked into this before buying an Octavia 2.0 TDi and couldn't find a single case of this ever happening to a 2.0 PD BKD engine. Seems a little misleading to say 'avoid the 2.0 at all costs' in the Octavia review when the BKD variant of this engine which was fitted to the Octavia doesn't appear to be affected by this problem, and generally seems very reliable ?
Edited by nick74 on 30/10/2010 at 12:24
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Would a re-mapped (by a pecialist, not just a plug in) 110bhp diesel be nearly as good as a 130 PD.? I'm asking as I've found a 110 bhp with excellent history, which has been serviced every 10,000 miles by a VW Specialist, whereas I'm dubious of a PD engine only serviced/oil changed every 20,000 miles. Or are modern oils so good there's no need for concern?
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It's quite true to say that there seem to be far fewer oil pump drive failures on transverse installations of the 2.0 PD as apposed to the N-S. There's no logical explanation if the same parts are used in each, so an alternative (speculative) explanation is possible:
VAG knew at an early stage that they had a serious problem with these engines and did not want to jeopardise their market leading products such as the Golf and Octavia - which have transverse units. Presumably they also knew which engines were affected and installed them in the N-S engined vehicles which had lower market penetration, giving a lower damage profile. Less risk and lower cost to them - reworking engines is expensive.
Pure speculation on my part but it fits the facts.
Some 2.0 PD transverse engines have failed and as the consequences of this failure are so dire, I would hesitate to recommend the 2.0 PD to anyone until VAG release the engine numbers of the units at risk. Try asking them.
I'm not a fan of "chipped" engines - the component parts of an engine are specified to meet output, life and emissions requirements and a single change (eg to fuelling) will result in a sub-optimal design placing some other parameter at risk. This might be life or smoke. There are also insurance complications to consider.
It's far better to decide on the output required and to buy the relevant engine from its maker in that form.
659.
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Just drove an A6, which was supposed to be 115bhp, but the service book said 81kw - thanks for the tip about this. Apparently its been chipped and pulled well but I think I'll prefer a PD. The car had been serviced evey 20,000 miles which bothers me.
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Our 110 BHP 1.9TDI was reworked (on a laptop?) to 124 BHP( note not 125) with extra torque forby
I have never had her on a dyno to test or verify though.
Anyway as sound as a bell after 175,000........... post "chipping"
All good except the starter motor.
So perhaps give consideration to the 110 lump
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I can't add much to the "engine" debate other than to say the best car i ever owned was a 130bhp (PD) passat on a 53 plate.
I regret getting rid of it. However, our company cash for cars policy dictates i can't run a car over 5 years old. The last two cars that have replaced it (both VAG) are toilet in terms of build quality, fuel economy and general get up and go (when you need it) in comparison.
I'd have the car back in a heartbeat and i suspect my next car won't be from VAG as the current products just don't feel as good as that vehicle did (maybe i was spoiled).
I have to add that it did sound like someone had left a "toolbag" in the engine on cold startup though.
Edited by AlleyCat` on 16/11/2010 at 13:55
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Having this engine in a similar car (Superb) I'm almost bound to agree with you, although I have driven later VAG offerings. I think noisy PD engines vary a bit between specimens; they are obviously installation dependent (better in a big, high geared chassis) and also an individual's tolerance of a particular noise spectrum is a very variable thing.
As an example, I find the PD in my Superb to be entirely acceptable except when worked hard (but it does "growl" nicely) but I find the noise of the diesel M-B B Class vehicles to be unacceptable - inside and out. It might be just me.
To be as fair as is reasonable to VAG and other engine designers, they're chasing Euro regs at a breakneck pace, such that development time is probably inadequate between major regulation changes. This has the inevitable consequence of half-baked developments being sold on the market - examples being some DPF designs and probably some piezo injector technology.
My own view is that the Eurocrats should recognise the inherent thermodynamic virtues of the diesel and allow adequate development time between legislative changes, such that all of its best features can be exploited. We could save a lot of fuel and emit less CO2 that way.
Without launching into a treatise on diesel engine design, I've been looking at the reliability of piezo injectors and their failure modes. It seems to me that some examples fail by insulation breakdown to ground. The controlling ECU then removes drive from all of the injectors - resulting in a sudden "stop in the fast lane". Not good. Any observations or comments welcome.
For my money, Euro III was the golden age of the car diesel - solenoid controlled (fail gracefully) injectors and no DPF - which is where we came in.
659.
Edited by 659FBE on 16/11/2010 at 15:17
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100% agree.
The 2 litre (140bhp) euroIV engine in my leon was more sluggish and produced lower mpg (in a lighter car) than the 130bhp (euroIII) in the passat.
I cannot understand how making people put more fuel in a car is going to make it cleaner?
At least VAG haven't had a mazda moment (if what i've read is anywhere near true) with regards to DPF tech.
Edited by AlleyCat` on 16/11/2010 at 15:39
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You seem to have a lot of knowledge about these VW/Audi TDI engines 659FBE.
Would you mind telling me your background and your practical experience.Its nice to know where somebody is coming from.I drive the 1.6 TDCI.engine in the Ford Focus.I believe this is a french unit.Are these engines very different from VAG units regarding injectors oil change sequenses longlivety and use of grade of fuel.Any advice is appreciated.
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Background - several years' employment with a UK diesel fuel systems producer - now, of course sadly gone. Then, engine test management with one of the UK's largest users of diesels - of all shapes and sizes.
I'm not prepared to elaborate on this information but I still have friends in the business...
The PSA/Ford units are very different from the VAG PD units. All benefit from proper maintenance.
659.
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Thanks for that information .
Or is it the aded bits injection systems DPF .I am just curious what makes one engine so much better or different than the other when the diesel principal is the same.I understand the maitenance bit but what makes one type of engine last so much longer.Should anybody buying a diesel engine car have a sticker on the windscreen not designed for stop start short runs.?Then the maintenance if a manufacturer recommends say a oil change every twenty thousand miles or twelve thousand miles who are we to argue they have done all the testing so they say.
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In engineering, the devil is in the detail.
Caveat emptor.
659.
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I understand but with this Caveat emptor a hell of a lot of people are taking to the cleaners.
Never mind thats business.
Dutchy.
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Diesel thickens the oil, Petrol makes it thinner. LPG/LPI although its clean would thicker at oil changes.
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Ford werk with PSA engine factory on the edge of Paris. PSA engines sit also in the Citroen and peugeot. The French say the best engines go to Peugeot and the second`s to Citroen, If that applies to the Ford I do not know of if that is true. All I do know is the unit has a good reputation and is built to last 340,000 KM`s. Time will tell.
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I have fitted a a diesel tuning box to my A6 Avant 1.9PD 130 SE. The primary reason was for the fuel consuption. I bought the car at 49k miles in 2006 (2003 Reg). The original fuel consumption was around 45mpg which was Ok. After fitting a DTUK tuning box (10min job) fuel consumption has never dropped below 53mpg & 55-56 on a run - that's 650-700 miles from one tank. Acceleration & mid range shove / torque has also improved considerebaly - now estimated at 160bhp & 380nm instead of 130 & 310nm.
Thye only snag is that now the mileage is at 118k the clutch is starting to slip. Whether this is just the mileage or the effectes of the the tuning box remains to be seen. Either way a new clutch & DM flywheel are the thick end of £800 at an independent. I don't rag the car at all. In fact I am very conservative so my driving stile is not to blame - testomany to the 55mpg consumption.
Overall I'm pleased with the A6 1.9TDi PD. Well built, noisy perhaps but very economical, spacious and practical. Just keep it out of main franchise dealers & their £100-150/hr labour rates. The only real snag is that it's a stiff low riding car which does not handle speed bumps or pot holes very well (new suspension bushes are needed after 100k which I have not yet done - anyone know how much?).
A dodgy left knee means that my next car will have to be a raised estate or SUV with big boot and auto box that can do 50+mpg & cost only £150-£175 VED? Any ideas?
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It maybe the first owner had a heavy foot with cold starts.It well know here in Holland/Belgium/germany that that crankshaft seal behind the flywheel leaks on cold starts through abusive use. Try the Volvo Estate made in Gent Belgium.Volvo use there own version of the 2.5 TDI engine from VAG or the 2.0 DCI 140 BHP volvo version from Renault.
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Newbie not sure how to (re-)start a thread.
Fed up with Ford - in the market for a used diesel A4 Avant quattro but a bit bewildered. Let's say 2-4 yrs old ie 06-08. What is a high mileage for a 2.0? A 3.0? Are there any particular power ratings to avoid? Even if the engine is good for 'starship' mileages, is the gearbox (tiptronic)? And the rest? What are the expensive services?
Any good advice appreciated, as the prices being asked for these machines mean I don't want to have to px it in less than 5-6 yrs ie 50,000m plus.
Thx
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