Nice work Andy, you have a lot more patience than me. I think you should be appointed the Back Room Pierburg Guru.....
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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Patience? maybe. Driven by lack of funds, definately. Like most car problems the solution often seems quite obvious and logical at the end, but if Id included all the other dead-end checks and four letter words muttered youd still be reading my last post now. As for Pierburg Guru, trust me, if anything else goes wrong with it Ill be splashing out on a Weber..... probably
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That's what Railroad said on 15March.Unblock the 0,5mm hole.
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It was Railroads post that got me checking the ports in the first place. But was confused a bit as the only 0.5mm port I could see ( the rest are sensible sizes) provides vacuum to the 3-4 point unit and not the choke pull off unit. Big thanks to Railroad though.
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Hi,
Thanx for the advise. My 83 Golf 1.6 has the same problem. It idles @ 2200 rpm cold and @ 2600 rpm hot.
Since the diaphragm rod is fully retracted and the choke valve is fully opened, I changed the waxstat but this didn't solve the problem.
The replacement waxstat came from an old carb and might also be defective. I tested it beforehand with hot water and the pin moved, although it didn't move outside its housing. So it doesn't move 5 mm into the carb body as you describe.
Now I've rigged it by putting a pin between the waxstat and the rod so the rod is always pushed 5 mm into the carb housing even when the engine is cold. The engine idles now @1000 rpm (when hot) which is only a bit to high.
Are there any bad side effects to this or will it just stall a bit more often when its cold? I'm going to get a new waxstat, it might take a couple of weeks though and I really need the car.
Grtz,
Dimi
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Sounds like your replacement Waxstat is also suspect, as you say. By fitting your pin between the waxstat and the rod you are closing the throttle flap to its normal hot operating postion. Not sure how much this would affect the cold running ie stalling, but if its tolerable then its got to be better for your engine than a racing idle. You might find a cold engine runs ok over the warmer summer months but worsens later in the year. Over-pushing the rod into the carb body is not a problem, should your duff waxstat start working again, as the throttle movement has a spring loaded limiter to absorb excess movement. Good luck.
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Folks,
As mentioned in my earlier thread the Haynes solex/pierburg carburettor manual ref H947762 is worth it's weight in gold for these carbs it explains concisely how the carbs work and will save hours of grief & aggro .
This manual maybe out of print now but try your local library/refernece library.
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Thanks to everybody for the help with my 2E2 problems.
I have just bought the Haynes Carb Manual from Halfords (Currently 20 % off) with a lot of info about the 2E2 but...
Does anybody have a wiring diagram for the carb on a 1986 1.8 Golf? There isn't one in my Haynes VW Golf & Jetta 1984/1992 Petrol Manual, as far as I can see only for a 1.6 from Aug 1987 which is different to my car.
My fault appears to be no power to the TTV and throttle body heater at any time. The throttle actuator seems stuck in anti-run-on mode.
Fuse 17 is OK. When I connect the TTV and heater to 12V they draw a current 5A falling to 2A, and the throttle plate actuator works as I would expect.
Has anybody any ideas?
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Try
volkswagen.msk.ru/vw_09.htm
I have not had a chance to print them, but they are def dif from the Haynes manual.
Alt try and go to an American Golf site, and get somebody to scan and mail diags from a 'Bentley' manual. This provided me with info for MFA on an 88 GTI which was not in Haynes.
I have had sim problems locating info on Carb heater info etc for an 83 Polo!
pmh (was peter)
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Would a manual choke conversion help with any choke problems, only I've seen one on ebay. My big bro has a 91 1.8 Golf that is really rough and weak when started but fine when warm. I think that its the auto choke unit and was thinking that rather than fixing it just putting in a manual choke instead.
I've seen some instructions for a similar kind of kit on the web and it looks a straighforward enough job.
Has anyone tried such a kit before?
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CJB
1.8 what model? You say carb and then refer to throttle body.
"My fault appears to be no power to the TTV and throttle body heater at any time. The throttle actuator seems stuck in anti-run-on mode.
Fuse 17 is OK. When I connect the TTV and heater to 12V they draw a current 5A falling to 2A, and the throttle plate actuator works as I would expect.
Has anybody any ideas?"
TTV??????
Since the current falls from 5A to 2A after (what period) it seems as tho some thermostat or timer is working.
Why dont you just disconnect them and reconnect to another ignition controlled source of power? This should then prove if the absence of 12v is what is causing the problem. I assume that you some problem?
Are they fed via a temp sensing switch in the cooling system somewhere on the engine, my memory thinks they maybe. Look at the Haynes manual for other versions of the engine and see how these are wired?
pmh (was peter)
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Sounds like either the earth wire is missing from the carb to the engine (carb is mounted on a rubber block) or the clever little relay looking device that was located (on my 87 passat) by the fuses & other relys is faulty. This is the device that sends out the signal to the the switchover box (IIRC correctly!) that allows vacuum to pull in the actuator rod over 1200 rpm and is a fuelling saving device on the over run as the rod remains depressed and allows the throttle butterfly to close completely therby not sucking in any fuel until the revs dropped to 1200rpm when the relay thingy sends out the current (IIRC it earths )and the switchover box allows the vacuum to be vented and the actuator rod pops out to move the throttle butterfly to the idle position to prevent stalling. Clever carbs these !!. Suggest you try a breaker for a replacemnt relay thingy as they were about £50 a few yrs ago.
Hope this helps (This should be explained correctly in the Haynes carb manual)
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Thank for the advice. It helped. See my reply to PMH, all OK now.
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The IIRC also holds the throttle valve fully in, in cut-off mode, when the engine is warming up with the choke on. As the engine warms up, the revs fall below 1200 rpm, the vacuum valve opens and the throttle valve moves to the idle poition. This confused me at first.
You can also repair the diaphram in the throttle valve (if you are desperate on a Sunday) by taking the diaphram out (with a screwdriver and pliers) and smearing it with silicon sealant (and the crimping the unit back together again). It has lasted for two years so far!
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Thanks for the inspiration and for the link to the wiring diagrams, unfortunately they are for US vehicles.
The car is a 1986 1.8 Golf Carb.
The TTV is the Thermo Time Valve that controls the throttle actuator, as it heats it shuts it\'s vacuum valve and the carb changes from fast idle to idle. Mine had no power so was stuck in fast idle.
I have now found the fault. The power wire to the TTV rubbed on the servo, the wire snapped, and the power wire touched the servo so blew a fuse. The VW manual said the fuse for the carb was fuse 17, which I checked and was OK. This was why I needed the wiring diagram.
I then guessed, from the 1987 onwards diagram, that fuse 18 might power the TTV. The VW and Haynes manual only said Horn!!, but it was the TTV. In the Haynes manual page 13.12 you can see a black wire going off to 21, but there is no diagram I can see for a 1986 1.8 carb.
So if your car is stuck in fast idle and your horn does not work check the TTV wires and fuse 18. I hope this can help somebody.
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Hey all.
Now,I`ve got this VW Polo GT from 1983.
The original engine must have been burned,cause theres a 1985 MH engine in the car now.
This engine has a Pierburg 2E3 carb.
I`ve checked the pull-down- and the stage II-diaphragms.
The stage II was shot,so I renewed it.
The electric valve at the back of the carb is clicking when voltage is applied,as it should according to the Haynes manual.
The hose from the filter to the exhaust is new.
I`ve just blown the whole carb clean,and checked all jets/holes/tubes for free passage.
Bowl was full of dirt.
The part throttle enrichment valve has been renewed.
Choke is disengaging as it should(auto-choke).
Now,when the car is cold,it runs ok.
When hot,it is jerking a bit both at idle and at partial throttle.
A bit,but enough to drive me crazy!
Adjusting the CO-screw does nothing about it.
I have yet to try the leak-test,by spraying ether or carb cleaner or the like around the rubber-base between the carb and manifold.
Didnt look to bad when I had the carb off.
I havent checked the warm/cold air valve in the filter,as I dont suspect this to be faulty(yet...),or causing the trouble.
If I block the little screw in the top of the carb with a slot for a screwdriver in it partly,it stops jerking,and rpms rise a bit.
But,this cannot be the problem,as I dont suspect jets to grow in size on their own?
Are these carbs prone to develop an airleak between the throttlevalve axle and the carb body?
Two friends of mine have had the same problems with thier Polos.
The one was told by the local mechanic,that he could renew the carb,but the problem would reoccur after like 6000miles.
The other cured the problem by ALWAYS adding alcohol to the fuel, just like we do during the winter.
He added like 1/4 of a 0.5 litre bottle of alc to 35 litres of gas.That must equal to like 1.25dl.
Its like 15-20 degrees C here in Denmark at the moment,and the problem is worst when its hot weather,during the winter,theres nothing wrong,not even with the choke!!!
Any suggestions are welcome,well,not the ones implying buying a new carb,cause thats not gonna happen.
Thanks in advance,Rooks,Denmark.
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Forgot to mention;
When the engine is hot,theres no jerking at WOT and general acceleration.
Problem occurs when I have to maintain a steady speed of 20-90 km/h and at idle.
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Bought a new rubber carb flange today(not genuine).
I sprayed the flange with the engine running,and it was leaky like a sponge,ALL around the flange.
I sprayed it with diesel-start(ether),and thats a perfect remedy for checking intake leaks.
Even the smallest amount of spray will make the rpms rise.
Now,I changed the flange(took like 1.5 hours or so),cost me just short of 300DKr.-(or 35USD).
Its a whole new car.
No jerking AT ALL,at any rpms or throttle positions,and the throttle response is MUCH better at low engine speeds while driving.
Idle is much calmer,now I can hardly hear the engine if I engage the clutch and let the engine idle while car is running.
Driveability is like a new car,it takes up speed from any revs in any gear at any speed.
Do yourself the favor of spraying your flange with diesel-start,to see if thats the thing causing your problems.
They said at the shop,that they sell many of these flanges,and that theyre also faulty on much newer VW`s,and also Golfs etc.
Regards.Rooks.
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Rookie,
Glad to hear it sorted your problem, the other failing point that gives similar symptons is a perished rubber blanking plug on an unused vacuum draw off point at the base of the carb. These persih over the years and allow air to be sucked into the engine giving similar symptons to yours. They can only often be viewed with the carb off the engines as they are often quite well hidden.
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Ok,I havent discovered such blanking plugs while I had the carb off, but there might be some.
I did the diesel-start test again,once I had the engine started with the new rubber flange,and no matter where I sprayed,the rpms didnt rise at all.
That must mean,that there are no leaks now.
Another thing is,that the hot/cold air valve in the airfilter nose seems to be faulty,or the vacuum control for it.
The diaphragm seems intact,but there is a constant vacuum supplied to the valve, no matter if the engine is hot or cold,and the weather here is WAY beyond freezing,its like 15-20 degrees C.
So,as long as theres a vacuum supplied to the valve,it remains in the "winter" position,only allowing hot air from the ex.manifold to be drawn in.
I`ve looked into the filter nose,with the long tract removed,so I can actually see the hot/cold valve,and it IS in the "winter" position all the time,when the engine is running.
Now,the main vacuum supply from the carb must deliver vacuum no matter what,right?
I mean,the orange thingy in the filter housing must be controlling wether vacuum shall be supplied to the valve or not,right?
Theres a vacuum hose from the carb to the orange thing in the filter housing,that must be removed in order to be able to remove the filter housing from the engine compartment.
Then theres another vacuum hose from the orange thing to the hot/cold valve.
This is why I suspect the orange thing to be faulty.
Cause if its not a valve or the like in the carb controlling the vacuum to the hot/cold valve,it must be the orange thing,right?
Thanks for answering.
Regards.Arndt,Denmark.
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To prove if this is contributing to the problem, I suggest that when the ambient temperature (and the engine) are hot you pull off the pipe at the flap valve end, and try to see if the car runs differently. The valve will then remain in summer (cold air) position.
Make sure that you block the pipe (plastic golf tee is best universal small plug).
I have found in the past that all the vacuum hoses can become porous and that disconnecting them all, checking that vacuum exists and plugging pipes is a good systematic way of checking things.
pmh (was peter)
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Yeah,I`ll try removing it and plugging the hose.
I have no golf-tees,but smaller socket-bits do a good job too,though they are a pain to loose,falling off the hose when driving...
Recently bought a house with a garage,and I have nothing there yet,wonder if I ever get enough tools and stuff.
Thanks.Arndt.Denmark.
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Ok,had the orange thingy in the filter-housing under surgery today.
Seems that theres a bi-metal leaf-spring and a ball and a seat in there.
It was full of black dirt from the carb or whatever,so the ball was stuck in the "block" position,allowing vacuum to reach the winter/summer valve even when the engine was hot.
Thats why the valve was always in "winter" position.
The orange valve cannot be dismantled,but the seat and ball can be removed.
I did that,and flushed the orange body with gasoline,and blew compressed air through it.
I put new rubber-hose endings on the plastic tube leading to the winter/summer valve.
Now it works as it should,at least when the engine is hot.
When the engine is hot,it draws cold air,and when I put a finger on top of the seat in the orange valve,the winter/summer valve changes to "winter".
Now I only have to wait untill its cold here(its 25 degrees C today),so I can see if the bi-metal leaf spring does its job,seating the ball in the seat.
Regards.Arndt,Denmark.
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This thread still going??? I've got my 2e2 carb running sweet now thanks to you guys (and the Haynes carb manual) but I've one more question...
the choke pull down unit, is it supposed to leak vacuum? Might sound like a silly question but I've three carbs and they all leak vacuum at the choke pull down unit.
That said, however, they still control the choke fine though I've probably compenstated for any problems with the choke settings.
The reason I ask is that my dizzy doesn't seem to advance properly (runs retarded at high revs) and it doesn't seem to be the mechanical advance or the vacuum advance diaphragm on the dizzy itself. So my next possible culprit is a general manifold vacuum leak somewhere.
I've had the carb and brake servo off and all the pipes are fine (now) but the choke pull-off unit won't hold a vacuum. Took it off last night and it appears to leak around the connecting rod.
Is this NORMAL??
many thanks
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Its not going very fast,this thread.
Anyway,I dont think your pull down can should be leaky.
My old 2nd stage can leaked down along the rod too,as you describe,and that kept it from working.
I blew smoke into the connecting hose,and it clearly came out along the rod.
Paid like 85$ for an original one at VW,and the 2nd throttle could open again.
You can always check the pull down can for operation this way:
The choke throttle valve should be in a vertical position when the engine is hot,or else the pull down can cannot pull the valve all the way back.
Thats at least how I think its supposed to work,and thats on a 2E3 carb.
Regards.Arndt,Denmark.
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cheers, I think I'll get a new one. Now get this, 163 quid for the pull down unit from VAG is a lot. 15 quid from GSF is a bargain, I hope its the right part
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Do people want me to stop this thread and start a new one with a pointer to this one ?
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Ohh man,them VAG dealers are insane....
Check with the part number for positive ID,when buying the 15£ part.
Many times,it IS the original VW part,with just the part No. filed off,when you buy an "unoriginal" part.
That was the case with my rubber carb flange.
As for starting a new thread:
I dont mind going on with this one.
Its rather long,but it doesnt bother me,at least.
Regards.Arndt.
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Hi arndt, just to let you know that the orange thingy is the controller for the hot/cold air supply, you'd probably already worked that out though.
I've replaced the choke part (no more whistling vacuum) but I was also looking at the orange thingy too as this seems to leak vacuum through the ball and seat arrangement.
I don't think its supposed to do this but I can't work out what the ball and seat are supposed to do (perhaps fine tuning of the temp sensitivity).
In the inlet side there is another valve which is held in position by the metal spring but again I can't see how this works.
Any ideas??
as to a new thread, I did start one by accident but one long thread works for me
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Yeah,it controls the summer/winter-valve in the airfilter housing.
I think it actually IS supposed to leak vacuum,though its not a lot.
Or,supposed or supposed,but I think its the way the engineers decided to make it work.
Of course noone "wants" anything to leak,but it might simply have been the easiest solution.
When the engine is cold,the bimetal spring in the orange thingy is forcing the ball against its seat(upwards),and the vacuum from the carb is lead to the summer/winter diaphragm,which then raises the valve,which then blocks off the cold air intake in favor of the intake leading to the exhaust manifold.
When the engine gets hot,the bimetal spring bends the opposite way,or bends less,and the ball drops downwards from it seat,and the vacuum from the carb gets access to the atmosphere.
I guess if it didnt get access to the atmosphere,the vacuum would still reach the summer/winter diaphragm,and eventually open the valve as when the engine is cold.
So as far as I can see,its an "intentional" vacuum leak, funny as it may seem.
What valve are you refering to on the inlet side("held in position by the metal spring")?
Maybe you can take a pic?
Anyway,my engine has started jerking VERY slightly again.
Thought it was because I had to retighten the carb flange bolts,but it didnt cure it.
Did the diesel start-test again,no leaks detected.
Maybe its the 1st stage throttle axle leaking a bit(it had like 0.3mm total radial play(about 0.1")),or maybe I have to sign myself into a mental institution....to not get bothered by these tiny irregularities.
Or maybe I just have to accept its not running steady as an old V6 engine or the like.
Regards.Arndt.
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well, I think you have the 1.3, as in the 1.6 the orange thing is held horizontally in the airbox, also they are sightly different on the outside, seem to work exactly the same though.
I sawed one in half and its very hard to work out whats going on.
There is also a pinhole in the top of the unit that draws air into the valve (and across the spring) then the spring seems to act on a plastic / rubber valve on the side of the unit connected to the control flap. The metal ball and seat might be fine tuning but I can\'t see that its supposed to leak vacuum as much as it does.
your engine jerk might be fueling very slightly out. pierburgs, who\'d have \'em??
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Yeah,its a 1300cc MH engine from 1985.
My orange thingy also has the pinhole.
Maybe the idea is to draw some cold air across the metal spring,to heat it or something.
I mean,it must be heated in some way,to make it open or close.
I`m pretty positive,that this orange thing is there only to control the winter/summer valve,and nothing else.
We might also consider,that during normal operation,the orange thingy draws air from the same space as the carb,so in fact the vacuum loss is much less than it is when the airfilter lid is off,if you know what I mean.
The whole filterbox is under vacuum,when the lid is on,not when its off.
And again,this vacuum difference depends on the throttle position; more difference the more closed the throttle is.
Also,the difference depends on how restrictive the filterbox is itself.
I mean,lets say the inlet tract was very small and restrictive.
The tract would then be the prime restrictor in the whole thing,and the difference in vacuum between WOT and idle wouldnt be that big.
But thats luckily not the case,so never mind,its just me rambling on...
I might take a look at the CO-screw,to see if I can make it run more even.
Regards.Arndt.
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I have a MkII Golf with Pierburg 2E3 Carb. The engine will start fine but cuts out almost immediatetly. I can only keep the engine from stalling if I hit the accelerator pedal. Even then it might be difficult to get full power. When reving there is a kind of spluttering from the exhaust. I've checked the fuel line and now feel it has something to do with the carb. I've sprayed a lot cleaning fluid into the carb. This hasn't helped. The vacuum hoses seem fine, there doesn't appear to be any cracked lines etc. Would the idle solenoid be a problem? How can you check if this is working? Any ideas please. Thanks.
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Sounds to me like your mainjet is clogged.
This happens occasionally on mine,even though I have an inline fuel filter.
Remove airfilter.
Remove all the screws holding the carb halves together.
Take care when lifting off the top half,so you dont destroy the gasket.
Soak up the fuel in the bowl with a big piece of paper.
Wipe out ALL traces of dirt in the bowl.
Use compressed air to blow the mainjets and other holes clean.
You must be able to see light through the mainjets.
The mainjets are the big screw-like things that reach the deepest into the bowl,theyre made of brass.
After making sure that theres passage through them,assemble again.
Note that the carb is loose on the manifold,now that you've removed the bolts.
You might have to turn the engine a little longer than usual to start it,remember the bowl is empty,and needs to get filled again by the fuel pump before anything will happen.
As I said,this happens to mine sometimes too.
The worst case was when I could only keep it alive by constantly pumping the accelerator.
This happens when the mainjet is clogged,and you can only get fuel to the engine via the accelerator pump,which pumps in extra fuel when depressing the accelerator.
Hope this helps.
Regards.Rookie.
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Hi Rookie,
Can you explain what the idle solenoid valve does for the carb? The wires to it look frayed and I'm wondering if this is working properly. Is there a quick way to check if this is ok?
One other thing I noticed before the car got this bad was when the engine was cold it chugged a bit when accelerating away and if I engaged the clutch the engine would cut out, bring it back into gear and it cut in again. Are these symptons of the same problem? Thanks for your help.
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