Take the Golf for example:
In a basic form, the Ford Focus is better. The Golf only gets good from Gt Tdi's, GTi 150 Turbos, V5's and V6's upwards.
VW has some good engines, granted: But I've so many friends that have nothing but serious faults and quality issues.
So, Come on, Educate me.
Cheers - Jon S
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Jon
Your failing to take into account the overwhelming influence of the VW thunk.
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I think you've answered your own question. It's a trickle down effect: the top of the range cars are very desirable, and always have been. Look at the 80s Golf Driver and 1.3 Ryder for the proof. If you can't justify £16k or whatever for a V5, you might still feel smart in a silver 1.6S with alloys. Even if you're not into the allegedly sporty aspect, those that are are a better class than an XR3i driver, so being a (lower case) Golf driver is generally aspirational.
Perceived quality is also better. Most people don't look at forums like this, or What Car? magazine, or anything other than how solid the car feels in the showroom (and possibly how much they think the car will be worth in a couple of years' time). There are a lot of solid 80s Golfs still around, although maybe this is because it's easier to justify spending £800 repairing a £1500 F reg Golf than a £300 F reg Escort.
Would I pay a premium for a used VW? Yes for a Passat, because it is streets ahead of its late 90s competition, but not for a Golf. Odd, because there's more of a premium on the Golf.
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Jon: if a Ford is what you want, don't let anything put you off. However, I prefer the "feel" of a VW Golf, which is a little difficult to explain. It's not the handling, which is good enough (but in Mk 4 form, a little remote and soft) but more the tightness of construction, general durability, and good finish. Thet actually still feel good after many miles. The Focus is said to be better handling, but there are compromises in all car designs. Altho' I'd willingly buy another Golf, the dealers put me off, but not as much as Ford! So, our next car is likely to be either a used Audi A3 (better dealers, from personal experience, but not paragons), a Honda Civic type S if it comes up to snuff, with Toyota Corolla 1.6 as a long shot. Can't be bothered with taking them back to be fixed, hence the choices, and as I'd prefer a motorbike, I don't get any thrills from the boxes I can afford !
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There is a rumour that they don't let Focuses through security into the St George's Hill Private Estate at Weybridge. Golfs are okay, though. That's really what it's all about: perceptions and sheep-following snobbery rather than how good something really is.
HJ
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Drive a Polo then a Fiesta. Or a Golf versus a Focus. or a Passat/A4 versus a Mondeo.
There is no comparison: Ford wins every time.
Want a status symbol? Buy a VW/Audi.
Having owned both I prefer to drive than be admired for my taste:-)
madf
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I love my old shape Fiesta and I honestly think it's got bags more character than the new shape Polo which is just bland...
Plus the Fiesta just impressed me tonight by holding off a bigger, faster car that was trying to undertake me to invade my lane :) She's got bags of pull in 3rd :)
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I think HJ has got it exactly right with his word perceptions...
Everyone and his dog knows that VW are the finest engineered and reliable car ever made.
And why?..
because their adverising tells you so. "If everything in life was so reliable" among many.
In contrast other makes almost ridicule their own cars with talking dogs, Vauxhalls courtroom drama, Another one with dolphins. Do you love me baby etc.
Good for a laugh but does it influence you.
VW also manage to keep their second hand value up. How that is done so well appears to be that they don't seem to heavily discount cars to fleet buyers perhaps.
Only had one myself a 1200 Beetle bought new in 1964 which cost £624.00. And it was good...
alvin
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Ah - what do "they" say when you drive up in a Skoda Superb?
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I had a VIP job cancelled at the last minute last week because of the car I drive. Nothing too special, there was an exhibition snooker evening at the Corn Exchange, and the local rag had arranged for a Mr Davis and a Mr O'Sullivan to demonstrate their skills. Put them up in the local 3-star hotel, get a hack to arrange transport to and from. Hack rings up half an hour before to ask what car he should be looking out for, his next question was "What's an Octavia?"...
So the hack cancels with us (after I spent all afternoon cleaning the car too!) and lands up with an L-reg smoky Merc E300D instead.
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Dave, 3-star ????
Two of my heroes and they get to stay in a 3-star.
Does this indicate stinginess of the hosts or are Steve and Ronnie a bit tightfisted.
3 star and then grizzles about the make of car to take them to their venue dosn't add up. tell us more...
alvin
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Best hotel we've got around here mate...! I think it's the hosts to blame on this occasion, Steve and Ronnie are probably the most famous people to have been here this year. The hotel ain't exactly the Ritz, and the venue for the evening falls some way short of the Albert Hall too. I think the exact words of the phone conversation were along the lines of "But you can't let S.D. and R. O'S. go in a SKODA!" as though there's something wrong with it!? I don't understand.
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Steve should perhaps have been reminded that back in the early 80s his prize for the the first televised or championship (not quite sure which) 147 was a Lada. Whether he ever drove it is a different matter.
Mind you I couldn't imagine it being himself who quibbled about the make of car. Or Ronnie for that matter.
Both of them have kept me from going to bed until the early hours many times.
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Well the way things are going within VAG and all the component sharing going on how long before we have the Skoda Phaetonia. Even I might be tempted, and I am sure the two snooker legends couldnt turn one of those down.
as ever
Mark
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Dave, for what it's worth, I think you have been treated appallingly here. Was it Mr D's and Mr O'S's decision not to use your car, or the hack that phoned your company? Either way, a terrible way to treat you, grrrrrrr cannot say anymore on this particular subject without resorting to language that is inappropriate for this site! I would just suggest that next time, as a point of principle, you refuse any jobs offered by these people.
HF
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It was the newspaper representative who suffered badge fright, unfortunately they hold an account with us, seems perfectly ok to take his boss to the airport in a skoda!!!
The fleet I work in consists of:
10x Octavias W to 51 reg
4x Vectras P to 51 reg
12x 405/406s K to S reg
5x Cavaliers L to N reg
3x Mondeos M to P reg
Primera N reg
Felicia estate V reg
Passat estate L reg
Galaxy N reg
Astra estate J reg
So I think a shiny clean Octavia with suited and booted driver would have sufficed!
Going back to the original thread, the Skodas are the only cars which don't seem to be constantly under the mechanic. (Or on top of him, i suppose!)
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HF, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the J-reg Astra mentioned here, only that it's done over 300,000m and is driven by a guy with no mechanical knowledge or sympathy!
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Dave, I know you didn't mean that!!! Perhaps if I ditch any form of sympathy I could use my lack of mechanical knowledge to tout some business (taxi-driving business) from your colleague.
I remain appalled at the way you were treated, sorry it's an account you can't get away from, I'm sure you must feel like sticking two fingers up at the next job they offer you, and I sympathise with the fact that you can't do that.
Good luck
HF
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\"Ah - what do \"they\" say when you drive up in a Skoda Superb?\"
Being prejudiced, and also very happy, I would say you could have had a Kia Magentis for a LOT less - not that I despise the Superb, but VAG are promoting the reaction from the old \"real\" Skodas (from which my brother had \"superb\" service) to the point where it is in danger of overtaking the VW as an over-priced symbol.
Tomo
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No idea at all. Tried a 150bhp Golf diesel and sure it went well but the noise and vibration were awful. Bought a Ficus TDCi and saved a shed load of money for a much better car.
It's all in the perception. The build quality is OK but others do it just as well. Some engines are vastly over-rated - I have driven dozens of VAG cars with 4 pot PDI engines and I have never found a good one - all noisy and uncouth, Ford does it much better.
If you must have a VW then save some money and buy a Skoda.
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one thing I've always heard is that the "build quality" of a VW is much better than that of a Ford (don't know whether this is still true with the new Ford range). I've watched clarkson & co admiring superior build quality cars but never worked out what they're looking for...
can anyone explain?
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IMHO I believe that the build quality of VW during the eighties and early ninetey's were better than their competitors. I do not believe that this is the case anymore. I own a 95 Golf VR6 and believe that the build quality is good, but not significantly better than others. Recent cars such as the focus are extremely well made (IMO). Gaps between all body panels and interior finishes are what I look for in a car. The narrower the gaps in a car, the more "control" they have in there processess during manufacture. If this is the case on the interior and exterior panels, I would presume that the engine, gearbox etc etc are also tightly monitored. I understand that most of the components of a car are manufactured elsewhere and assembled at the OEM, but it is a good indication.
God I sound boring!
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I agree that the build quality of VW's was much better in the 80's - early 90's. My wife has got an A reg 1043cc Polo with 150K on the clock (owned from new) that appart from wear and tear bits (tyres/exhaust/battery(every 6 years)/brakes/servicing)
has only ever required one clutch, one alternator, one fuel pump and oil breather!, not bad for 19 years. Its also never required any welding yet (I've noticed there are a lot of X-A reg ones still in good nick!).
I've also owned (now sold but still running well) a 1990 1.6 TD Passat Estate with approaching 190K which never had any of the turbo/diesel pump problems that plague VW diesel cars today, was very noisy a tickover though. The only problem with this car is that it had a thirst for rear wheel bearings, noth suprising as I discovered that its the same one as the polo!
I didnt like the current golf (boot too small for familly camping), so I bought a Skoda Octavia instead (527 litre boot!).
Nothings dropped off yet. Build quality good appart from silly thigs like the boot floor abve spare wheel is only hardboard (also true in Golf). In my old Passat it was made of metal
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Thanks for that BB. From now on I hope I'll look a little more convincing when I give forecourt cars the onceover.
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Can't say I share the usual enthusiasm for VW 'quality'. SWMBO's '98 Passat 1.8 20V has an autobox which whines nicely at 60mph, and an engine which at idle often sounds more like a diesel. It might well have 128k miles on the clock, but it has that oh-so-covetable 'full VWSH'. Meanwhile, my Citroën XM automatic glides onwards with a paltry 179k on its original cambelt........
Mind you, the doors do shut nicely on the VW!
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As far as I`m concerned VW quality hs headed South since the excellent Mk 1 & 2 Golfs. My daughter bought a late Mk 3 GTi with only 13k miles from our local Main Dealer, and it was nothing more than trouble, with the engine cutting out & dying without any prior warning, - which is no fun & downright dangerous in heavy traffic. I reckon it could have been caused by the engine managent control unit, but the dealer could not fix it, so we sold it at considerable loss less than 6 months after purchase. Needless to say we will never touch another VAG product and think they are grossly over-rated!! She has now purchased a new Ford Ka which is running like clockwork!!
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Thanks all for your input.
At this point in time, only 3 posts out of 24 actually think the VW brand is desirable.
It's also interesting to see that a few have had woes with their VW's reliability wise.
So, what's my conclusion so far?
The Volkswagen is a premium brand, through cleverly carried out by advertising and more annoyingly the British foible of being a sucker for having a VW, mostly because it is more desirable on the drive than next doors Ford, Fiat, Skoda, Seat or any other brand that sits below the quality perception of VW.
So, the good old British class separations are in evidence.
I can understand fleets buying them due to the positive residuals created from the image created by the British, class driven public.
It is a shame though that this short sightedness filters through to the denigration of the Skoda product. Having driven the Fabia and Octavia, as well as sitting in the Superb @ the Motorshow, It is my belief that these are better than the VW products they were spawned from. That said, the Fabia has great residuals.
To the author of the thread that said that a client refused the Octavia for a journey, you should have suggested they walk. I don't like the old Nissan Bluebird much but I have been grateful of the ride home in a typical such minicab after a night out!!!
To the guy who rated the Passat, I entirely agree. I went in one that had done 128k miles and still felt tight and new.
I do think the Golf is a bit of a black sheep though: And that legendary build quality, forget it: If you open a glove compartment on a Golf and hold both sides in your hand, it easily distorts under a slight pressure. That cannot be said of the Focus, the Skoda Octavia and dare I even say it, the Daewoo Leganza!.
If the Golf and more rightly, VW, want to be percieved has having the build quality they aspire to have, the dashboard will need to feel like it has been hewn from granite. It doesn't at the present time.
They'll have to sort out their reliability as well.
Cheers - Jon S
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And that legendary build quality, forget it: If youopen a glove compartment on a Golf and hold both sides in your hand, it easily distorts under a slight pressure. That cannot be said of the Focus, the Skoda Octavia and dare I even say it, the Daewoo Leganza!.
Is the "glove compartment distortion test" set to become the new benchmark for build-quality?!
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In response to Splodgeface:
Is the "glove compartment distortion test" set to become the new benchmark for build-quality?!
Why not!! Everyone, including me! seems to be hung up on the build quality question. Perhaps we ought to get touchy feely and judge the build on tests of this nature.
Cheers - Jon S
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It's in the history. In the 70's & 80's the Golfs were built well and the rivals just were not.
Escorts & Astras could be quicker than GTIs but sounded like a sack of spanners after 30-40k. The VWs were only just run in.
Fords have caught up these days and VW have gone backwards.
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I'm on my eighth consecutive VW some have been new and some less than 1 year old.
Started buying them in the 80's because I could afford it and the local dealer ,had an excellent reputation, VW dealer of the year.
Heavy salt problem in Derbyshire, so corrosion resistance was a factor.Japanese cars only became rust resistant recently in my opinion. SWMBO old Mk1 Micra developed rust on the roof! Colleagues, friends and family moaned about their makes of car - no one complained about VW /Audi. Other dealerships came and went but VW stayed until recently.Only ever had minor problems and dealer went out of their way to keep me happy.
The interior quality and superb component fit and ageless style is still evident on my latest car, a diesel Passat estate.Now that long established VW dealerships are becoming an endangered species , I may change to a Toyota, for continuing relability, in due course.
The new Corolla looks like an A3, not a plus point for me , and the Avensis, nearest to Pssat size, has high depreciation and an archaic diesel.I have not decided to defect yet, even this excellent site has not convinced me to swap marques.
I like VW!
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Go on - try a Volvo V70 D5, I dare you!
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Dunno. Friends of mine owned one from brand new and had so many problems that after 18 months of hassle and poor dealer suport they said goodbye to a great deal of cash and got rid of it. They (and now I) would never buy one under any circumstances.
V
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Volvo? Isn't that a Ford , formerly fitted with Renault 18 petrol engines and ancient 5 cylinder VW commercial engines?
Seriously ,thanks for the thought, our local Mercedes dealer has just metamorphosed into a Volvo dealer.
Anyone had experience of running a V70 diesel?
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I am sure VW benefits from the prestige image of German engineering, the four-sprung-duck-technique as they call it. In the first part of the last century Germany led the way in many areas of science and technology. Witness Leica and Zeiss, whose world class optical designs were distributed to the allies in 1945 as war reparations. They still do well in technology r.e. the Fraunhofer institutes which reel in the Nobel gongs, and Leica and Zeiss still produce the best cameras, lenses, microscopes etc. Even Doc Martens were designed by a German.
Anyone ever marvelled at French technology? J'aime mieux un fromage moi.
Leif.
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AND...they still "Have vays to make you talk"!! :o)
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"Anyone ever marvelled at French technology? J'aime mieux un fromage moi."
How about comparing the Citroen DS in 1956 with the equivalent VW range then? XUD engines? HDi engines? Renault Turbo Grand Prix engines? Williams Renault GP cars? DeDion? Matra? Mors? Gobron-Brille? No the French have no history of innovative technology
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PhilW: I was referring to perception/image rather than reality. After all Ariane is a triumph of essentially French technology n'est ce pas?
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Anyone had experience of running a V70 diesel?
Read HJ's comments on the D5 in Car by Car breakdown.
I've owned a V70 D5 since May and I am really pleased with it, excellent performance and economy. The D5 is a new 2nd generation HDI diesel engine developed by Volvo, and the Volvo V70 has won the diesel car of the year award I believe.
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Go on - try a Volvo V70 D5, I dare you!
VOLVO5_DUDE:
D5, T5, 850R whatever.
I'm sure they are all good.
Volvo have always made tanks and they build em good.
Unlike VW who use to make quality cars, but now con the public into thinking they do.
Cheers - Jon S
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>>Unlike VW who use to make quality cars, but now con the >>public into thinking they do.
Jon
I'm glad I took HJ's advice and went for the Volvo V70 D5. I was considering a Passat V6 TDI diesel estate. After reading about the demise in the quality of Vw & the dealerships I'm glad I did.
VD5D
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In answer to Steve S statement below:
It's in the history. In the 70's & 80's the Golfs were built well and the rivals just were not.
Escorts & Astras could be quicker than GTIs but sounded like a sack of spanners after 30-40k. The VWs were only just run in.
Fords have caught up these days and VW have gone backwards.
STEVE: I AGREE TOTALLY WITH WHAT YOU SAY.
Cheers - Jon S
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Jon S,
I wish it were different but hey, things change I guess. I don't know if VW stretching themselves over Seat and Skoda came at the expense of their own cars, who knows?
It still doesn't expain why the number of rotten VW dealer experiences is increasing.
I can also vouch for volvod5 dude's assessment of the V70 - it's a cracking car in 2.4T petrol or D5 diesel (if oil is your thing).
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