Watchdog 20/10/11 - jamie745

Anybody see Watchdog this week with the segment about the DPF's? If you didnt see it there was nothing that we hadnt heard before and was essentially the same thing we've been saying for ages to all buyers who come on here asking for advice.

Its interesting how its taken the nations foremost staple of consumer advice programming so long to pick up on it. The case of the man who bought the diesel Fiat 500 for driving round town and later discovered this wasnt a good idea said bluntly that he was never informed that it wasnt an ideal town car. Fiat laughably responded by denying the 500 is intended to be or advertised as a 'city car.'

*Looks at Fiat 500* Well its hardly a motorway cruising estate barn is it?!?

And as for Nissan's 'Urbanproof' Cashcow, well that just confirmed all the stick we give that thing to be justified.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - dervdave

The case of the man who bought the diesel Fiat 500 for driving round town and later discovered this wasnt a good idea said bluntly that he was never informed that it wasnt an ideal town car. Fiat laughably responded by denying the 500 is intended to be or advertised as a 'city car.'

*Looks at Fiat 500* Well its hardly a motorway cruising estate barn is it?!?

And as for Nissan's 'Urbanproof' Cashcow, well that just confirmed all the stick we give that thing to be justified.

Yeah suprised the issue of DPFs haven`t been dealt by watchdog before now because its a problem thats been around at least 7 yrs

Unbelievable that a manufacturer would try and `duck` out of the responsibility of their products. We know its law that things things have to be fitted now but the dealers should be clear as crystal with their advice to a potential customer.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - barney100

I am not an engineer but surely it should be possible to produce a filter that removes particles without having to run it hot for long periods to clean it.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - oldroverboy

All of you who have the inclination, Go to a dealer, any dealer, and not one of them will ask what you want the car for. One of the other points is that "DPF filters" "will not last the life of the engine." The EU are making it harder and harder to run an engine efficiently by reducing emissions willy-nilly. While there was a case for catalytic converters, current technology is asking for emissions levels to be reduced by adding layers of complexity, 3 way cats, dpf's stop start, twin dsg twin clutch gearboxes. Get any 2 of these failing at 3 years and the car will be uneconomic to repair, and see the warranty exclusions for dual mass fltwheels, dual clutches etc etc. Next car for me... mid sized medium engined petrol when mine is out of warranty and the right vehicle presents itself, but at a guess something with a 5-7 year warranty, ordinary gearbox and the least electrical bits possible.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - dervdave

. Next car for me... mid sized medium engined petrol when mine is out of warranty and the right vehicle presents itself, but at a guess something with a 5-7 year warranty, ordinary gearbox and the least electrical bits possible.

Here you are OldRBoy, just the job ... the `new` Lada Niva`

markkey.co.uk/

Edited by dervdave on 22/10/2011 at 16:51

Watchdog 20/10/11 - colinh

Very positive report on one in "Fifth Gear" this week.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - dervdave

Very positive report on one in "Fifth Gear" this week.

It sure was

Watchdog 20/10/11 - daveyjp
If you spend all your time on Green Lanes! 70mph could be interesting.
Watchdog 20/10/11 - oldroverboy

Here you are OldRBoy, just the job ... the `new` Lada Niva`

http://markkey.co.uk/

I remember these when I lived in Switzerland in the 80's very popular alternative motoring, yes please!

Watchdog 20/10/11 - Armitage Shanks {p}

Particle filter (PF) Particles have a diameter of around 0.09 microns and consist mainly of carbon and hydrocarbons. The PF traps these particles and periodically burns them off. Particles burn naturally at approximately 550 °C, but the normal temperature of exhaust gases leaving the manifold is only 150 °C.

The particle filter system overcomes this problem in a number of ways : post-injection during the expansion phase, resulting in post-combustion in the cylinder and a 200 to 250 °C increase in exhaust gas temperature (i.e. to between 350 and 400 °C) ; additional post-combustion by means of an oxidising catalyst located upstream of the filter.

The catalyst acts on any unburned hydrocarbons resulting from the post-injection and raises the temperature by a further 100 °C (to between 450 and 500 °C) ; use of Eolys, a cerine-based additive that reduces the particle combustion temperature to 450 °C.

The particle filter system consists of the following : a housing containing the pre-catalyst and filter. The filter is a porous block of silicon carbide that traps all particles in the exhaust gases. Sensors monitor clogging pressure across the filter and the gas temperatures at the inlet and outlet of the system ; a software programme in the engine control unit that controls regeneration of the filter by post-injection every 400 to 500 km depending on the clogging pressure across the filter.

The software also provides diagnostic information on the system. During regeneration, the inlet air is no longer cooled by passing through the air-air intercooler but is instead heated to raise the temperature of the mixture in the combustion chamber with a consequent increase in the temperature of the exhaust gases ; a fuel additive system consisting of a probe tube, a system to inject Eolys into the main fuel tank and a dedicated electronic controller.

The Eolys is stored in a tank adjacent to the main fuel tank and injected in proportion to the volume of fuel added during refuelling. For example, when filling up with 60 litres of fuel, the system will inject 37.5 ml of solution containing 1.9 g of cerine. The Eolys tank has a capacity of 5 litres, sufficient for 80,000 km. The filter is cleaned and the Eolys tank refilled during dealer servicing every 80,000 km.

Edited by Avant on 22/10/2011 at 20:30

Watchdog 20/10/11 - jamie745

In my view the EU have bulldozed through ever stricter emissions legislation without any thought to the cost to the eventual vehicle owner. They dont care if it leaves you with a £1000 bill because its saved emissions and a polar bear so its a 'small price worth paying' yet they dont seem keen to pay it for you, funny that.

Dealers need to remember your average car buyer, like the people featured on Watchdog, are not going to know this stuff. You're going to have to tell them what the system is, what it does and how it should be driven. Whenever anyone comes on here for advice we recommend a petrol on lowish mileage or an older diesel on high mileage, nobody has recommended a DPF car to anybody yet (that ive seen) and thats no accident.

If i had to have a diesel, give me a 10 year old 180k miles 406 HDi or something along those lines rather than splash out on a new 'Urbanproof' Crossover with a ticking chequebook on the exhaust pipe.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - Galad

Neighbour justa bagged a bargain, he thinks, of a year old Insignia CDTi with DPF and with just 3k on the clock which dealer has been using as a demonstrator (city base dealer so the car won't have been on many long runs). His daily commute is 15 miles of stop-start city traffic and he believes that the economical diesel will keep him away from the pumps unlike his old petrol Focus. When I asked he told me that the salesman expalined how all the instruments worked but said nothing about how to drive the thing. I suggested he play back Watchdog on IPlay for some enlightenment. I also suggested he chooses his source of fuel very carefully.

Anyway, my question is does the 7 year Kia/5 year Hyundai guarantees extend to blocked DPFs and relpacing them if the vehicle isn't drivien to the handbook's specification? Also, how much can owners expect to pay for the c80,000km DPF overhaul that is required as I understand the eloys fluid is very expensive (£25 a litre?)? I know of a Volvo S60d owner who had to stump up £900 including the routime service charges. Alli in all, it kind of offsets the fuel economy attraction of buying modern diesels, especially those equipped with the dual mass flywheel clutches.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - jamie745

His daily commute is 15 miles of stop-start city traffic and he believes that the economical diesel will keep him away from the pumps unlike his old petrol Focus.

On a rough guess i'd think he's paid at least 12k for that car or within that ballpark. Who spends £12,000 to then 'keep away from the pumps.'

Thats a very expensive way of saving money.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - dervdave

If i had to have a diesel, give me a 10 year old 180k miles 406 HDi or something along those lines rather than splash out on a new 'Urbanproof' Crossover with a ticking chequebook on the exhaust pipe.

My 18mth old 2.0d Verso doesn`t have a DPF although the new model does.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - 659FBE

There's nothing new here - the EU have bulldozed our energy economics before.

Lots of perfectly servicable and reliable gas boilers have been scrapped in favour of condensing boilers which are about as well made as a biscuit tin and contain really flaky complex electronics and valving. Their average annual maintenance and repair costs are considerable and far outweigh the gas savings made over a simpler system. The EU legislators obviously neglected to consider the overall pollution caused by the imposition and repair of these shoddy products. Nor do they care about personal costs.

My 20 year old boiler functions perfectly with minimal electronics (spark generator board) and has a cast iron heat exchanger. It has required no replacement parts in that time. If you decode the rating plate, it's 86% efficient at the gas rate I have set it to. You don't need to be either an engineer or an economist to work out that it's a good proposition - a further 7% gain in efficiency achieved by a condensing boiler would never pay for itself - even if it functioned reliably.

Possibly a wander off topic - but exactly the same thing has happened with the (previously wonderful) diesel engine. I have one of the last Euro III diesels, a VAG PD with no DPF and like my boiler, it will enjoy a long and carefully maintained life with minimal trouble.

The stupid Eurocrats have emasculated one of the most efficient prime movers available and have shot themselves in the environmental foot.

659.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - memyself-aye

spot on 659.My Myson Apollo boiler is 22 years old and works perfectly. two thermocouples and one gas valve in all that time-all of £60.

Condensing boilers?

Another Prescott calamity!

Watchdog 20/10/11 - Bobbin Threadbare

Well if you want to get all 'eco' about this think of the <hates to use the term> carbon footprint. Far better to have an old boiler that's still going than one which is new but requires parts all the time. The Toyota Prius is a good example; it may well use less petrol but it's very expensive to fix and the parts for it are flown halfway round the globe, thus making up that car fuel deficit with airliner fuel instead!

Watchdog 20/10/11 - madf

We have a perfectly functioning 30 year old boiler. One new pump and gas valve.

Replacemnet cost incl lots of "neccessary" extras: £4k.

Gas saving a year £300. (at most)

I did not bother...

Watchdog 20/10/11 - Buster Cambelt

Half the time I'll wager it's a cop out by lazy and incompetant dealers.

It's too easy to tell an owner that the DPF is faulty every time a light comes on. I had an orange 'engine check' light appear when I had the Yeti. that was assumed to be the DPF. I drove the thing pretty much on the red line up and down a dual carraige way (about 16 miles in all) and the light stayed on. Of course it would - the ECU was faulty.

Again, technology for technology's sake, but it did save engine manufacturers the trouble of building truly clean engines rather than the same old grot with a load of filters bolted on (and, yes, I know it's more complex than that).

Watchdog 20/10/11 - BenG

I just replaced my 8-year old, Euro III Focus TDCi with a 7-year old, Euro III SEAT Leon 1.9TDI, just to avoid the DPF issues.

I'm hoping the VW TDI will be as reliable as 659FBE claims!

Watchdog 20/10/11 - Roly93

Firstly let me say, the world would be just as good without DPF's I think as they probably increase fuel useage anyway. However the big problem realy is poor customer advice and knowledge, ie dont buy a DPF equiped diesel if your driving profile doesn't suit it.

I've had a DPF equiuped diesel for 2 years now without a peep of trouble, and the only incident I can quote is when my wife used the car for a week of very short low-speed journeys and even then the car just did a re-gen and was perfectly happy since. I am however fortunate enough to do 3-4 80mile+ motorway blasts per week on average.

Watchdog 20/10/11 - 1litregolfeater

Youngsters, step aside

I'm running a Potterton C80, first registered near Birmingham in 1978, made from iron and steel from Sheffield, smelted with coal and ore from a mine that used to be near you.

Requires a new thermocouple from Wickes for a fiver every 5 years. Ridiculous safety nonsense and hi-tech with it, how did they dare in 78.

Not very gas efficient but it works and it's there, so highly efficient in terms of the planet or my own pocket.

In another house I used to live in, I installed a Vaillant Combi. Cheap to run, did the shower too. Broke down after a year.