Incorrect Car Parking Fine - dsuk81

I received a letter from Town and City parking saying that i was being fined for car parking in Scotland.

This is clearly incorrect as i have never been to Scotland.

Is this a scam by the company or an indivdual in the organisation to get a bonus?

Or has my car registration been cloned....?

I am not planning on paying the fine, despite the letter talking about debt collection agencies, what should i do?

They said they have got my details from the DVLA, have they not commited an offence by doing this, as they have no right to access my information as i have not commited an offence.

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Ethan Edwards

I believe any cowboy parking outfit can get your details from the DVLA if they show good reason. Good reason is £2.50 apparrently.

Try www.pepipoo.com but that sounds to me like a private company. So it's a civil matter.

Don't panic. If you feel inclined you might contact them telling them that you were not the driver, the vehicle has been mis-identified as you can prove you were hundreds of miles away at the time. I would also inform them that they have no contract, verbal, written or implied with you and that any further communication will be considered by you as tantamount to harrassment. Mention the Protection from Harrassment Act 1997.

You maybe could also demand photographic proof. In any event don't pay these scum a penny. If it was me I would go out of my way to waste as much of their time as possible.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

Incidentally never let debt collectors in even to 'use the phone' or for a 'glass of water' etc. If refused entry they are powerless so do not be afraid.

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - voy2age

Don't know if this will help, but i had a fine from the london congestion charge, when i was 300 miles away (i had a witness btw), i reported the matter to the police and the Dvla (who asked if i wanted to change my reg number for free). i then wrote to the london council and told them the facts plus the police crime number and witness statement, i told them that if the matter was not dropped and i had any futher letters other than a cancellation of the fine, i would see this as harassment and would take legal action, it was dropped and no fine.

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - daveyjp
Town and City are an operator in private car parks, quite often supermarkets. They have sent you an unenforceable invoice, not a fine.

Don't waste the price of a stamp, simply ignore them. One of their back room monkeys will have filled a form in wrong.
Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Honestjohn

From 1st October 2012, under Clause 56 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2011, the registered keeper of the vehicle accused of the breach of parking contract on private land becomes directly and legally liable for the payment. If he does not pay, or get the driver of the car to pay, bailiffs can be engaged to enter his house and remove property to the value of the charge. There will be three stages of appeal: to the parking enforcement company, to an independent adjudication service operated by London Councils, and finally to the Civil Courts. I have been attempting to warn the GBP of this for more than 18 months, but few people have paid any attention. For the latest information, see: www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/legal--motoring-advice/2.../

HJ

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - barney100

This makes me mad, you get sent a letter demanding money for an offence you clearly didn't commit, they have got your details from the DVLA who seem to hand this sort of thing to anybody. I would write to them saying you consider this harrassment and if they continue with this demand for money you will take legal action.

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - daveyjp
HJ you are off beam regarding bailiffs and it is scaremongering. Before bailiffs come knocking a Court case is still required and as ever a well defended case against a PPC either scares them off, or they lose.
Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Honestjohn

Not under the new law, daveyjp.It makes the keeper directly liable if he does not identify the driver and/or if the driver does not pay. That is the big change in the law. The keeper can first appeal to the parking enforcer, then to the London Councils adjudicators, but if his appeal fails the charge is due and he has to to to the small claims track of the county court to appeal it rather than the parking enforcer take him to court to enforce it.

HJ

Edited by Honestjohn on 18/08/2012 at 18:44

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Loubs

You're right that they lobbied the government to change the law regarding that, HJ, but it has absolutely no effect on enforceability.

Parking charge Notices are based on contract law. Contract law states that the "injured" party will only be compensated by the amount the breach of contract costs them. In the case of PCNs, you're usually speaking about a "free" space for a certain length of time, or a space costing a couple of pounds for a certain length of time. No court is going to award charges of 2500% of the agreed parking charge - which is around what these theiving companies are asking you for - for overstaying the allotted time.

The rest of the arguments against PCNs still apply; they haven't changed the unenforceability of PCNs, they've just scored another way to scare people into paying something they aren't entitled to pay.

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Loubs

This is a letter which was drafted by a solicitor, and placed online for the use of anyone who may need it. You can change the details to suit your requirements. I've noted the parts which have changed due to the alteration of statutes:

Town & City Parking Ltd

5 South Inch Business Centre

Shore Road

Perth

PH2 8BW

Date

Sir/Madam

I am writing in final response to your claim for £XX.XX, supposedly due in relation to Parking Charge Notice (notice number here), issued on xx/xx/xxxx.

You are probably aware Private Parking Companies rely on the law of contract as the basis for claiming and enforcing penalty notices. This differs from notices issued by police or local authorities that are issued pursuant to the Road Traffic Act 1991.

The long established remedy for breach of contract is damages and the measure of the same is to put the injured party in the same position had the breach not occurred. Clearly, therefore in this instance there is no loss amounting to £XX.XX, as the parking is free. It is trite law (Wilson v Love 1896, Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre v New Garage Motor 1915 et al) that you cannot charge a penalty for breach of contract, i.e. where the sum bears no relation to the potential loss.

I am not the only driver of the vehicle and require proof that I was the driver at the time of the alleged offence. ( Loubs: This is the only part which can no longer be used under the change of statutory law.)

Additionally, the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulation 1999 and related Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083, in particular at section 5 states that unfair terms are:

(1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

(2) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.

(3) Notwithstanding that a specific term or certain aspects of it in a contract has been individually negotiated, these Regulations shall apply to the rest of a contract if an overall assessment of it indicates that it is a pre-formulated standard contract.

(4) It shall be for any seller or supplier who claims that a term was individually negotiated to show that it was.

(5) Schedule 2 to these Regulations contains an indicative and non-exhaustive list of the terms which may be regarded as unfair.

There is also the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 that states in section 4 that:

(1) A person dealing as consumer cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.

(2) This section applies whether the liability in question –

(a) is directly that of the person to be indemnified or is incurred by him vicariously;

(b) is to the person dealing as consumer or to someone else.

Clearly the charging of £XX.XX is wholly unreasonable.

We have no intention of wasting any more time corresponding with you. If you continue to pursue the matter this will constitute an offence under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997.

Due to the way in which you have harassed me in this matter, as well as the supposedly official nature of your alleged “PCN” I am considering reporting the matter to the police pursuant to Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, that states, it is an offence to coerce another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due to under contract if he or she:

(a) harasses the other with demands for payment which by their frequency, or the manner or occasion of their making, or any accompanying threat or publicity are calculated to subject him or his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;

(c) falsely represent themselves to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment;

(d) utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not

Again, as this is a breach of contract claim I am only liable to compensate you for ACTUAL LOSS. As parking was free for 2 hours, you have not suffered a loss of £XX.XX.

I look forward to your written confirmation that the ticket has been withdrawn.

Regards

Signature

Edited by Loubs on 03/11/2012 at 22:42

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Bromptonaut

HJ

To be clear, it's for the Parking Company to issue CC proceedings for the debt, rather than CC being a form of 'appeal' open to the driver/keeper. Councils can register PCN debt at the Northampton TEC and it's likea judgement debt. Not the same for private land.

The registered keeper will get notice in form of summons and opportunity to defend. If he fails to respond to the summons then default judgement and bailiffs will likely follow. Provided he files defence the case will go to the District Judge for a hearing.

Whether the contractual loss = diddley squat line will still run post 1 October remains to be seen. Sch 4 to PoFA implies certain assumptions about the terms of the contract and signage.

Only when these cases start coming to court in next few months will we get some sense of how the law is being interpreted. Personally I'd struggle to defend a well designed PoFA compliant notice, such as those now displayed at local Homebase/Argos, which infers a contract to pay £65 for overstaying, parking outwith bays etc

Edited by Bromptonaut on 04/11/2012 at 08:45

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Bromptonaut

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Bromptonaut

Not under the new law, daveyjp.It makes the keeper directly liable if he does not identify the driver and/or if the driver does not pay. That is the big change in the law. The keeper can first appeal to the parking enforcer, then to the London Councils adjudicators, but if his appeal fails the charge is due and he has to to to the small claims track of the county court to appeal it rather than the parking enforcer take him to court to enforce it.

HJ

The private land appeals website has recently been updated imcluding a newsletter. Advice there, as mine yesterday, is that it Landowner must issue proceedings in CC to secure payment. Bailiffs won't be relevant until that step is passed.

https://www.popla.org.uk/Newsletters.htm

Edited by Bromptonaut on 05/11/2012 at 16:12

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Pyranha
Are you sure this is Scottish law too? I'm sure I read that this new law applies to England and Wales only. Bear in mind that this is a Scottish company alleging an 'offence' in Scotland, so jurisdiction is clearly Scottish.

I would point out that bailiffs don't operate up here either.
Incorrect Car Parking Fine - SteveLee

Incidentally never let debt collectors in even to 'use the phone' or for a 'glass of water' etc. If refused entry they are powerless so do not be afraid.

Correct, however, if you leave a door or window open they have every right to access the property without your permission. Also I beleive once they've been in legally, they can force entry at a later date.

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - BigJohnD

If you feel inclined you might contact them telling them that you were not the driver, the vehicle has been mis-identified as you can prove you were hundreds of miles away at the time.

ANPR is not 100% accurate.

Zeroes and "O"s get interchanged, and goodness knows they make of chavplates with misplaced characters and coloured retaining bolts accidentally repositioned to create new letters.

Result: Your registration number.....

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - bananastand

Having seen HJ's reply I feel sick! Parking companies have relied on scaring people, sending letters with policey-looking black and white check stripes on them etc.... but now can they really just dive in and nick your stuff?

This is the sort of thing that Alex Jones warns about on infowars, if any of you have seen him. This is tyranny and corporatism. Aaaaaghghgh!!

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Bromptonaut

They, ie private parking companies, cannot just dive in take your stuff. You have to get a summons and ignore it or lose case first. Just like any other civil debt.

Even where Councils, who have wider powers, want to enforce there's a notice of registration of debt sent by the County Court. If that's wrong (no knowledge of proceedings etc) then you can make a sworn declaration and it will be withdrawn.

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - concrete

Well people: welcome to Camerons Britain. HJ and many others including myself put a petition online to try to get this section of the PoFA debated and overturned or amended in Parliament. We warned that everyone seemed to be sleep-walking into this and it has turned out to be correct. Too late, came the cry!! HJ is right. We need to see how the defences against this vile Act are interpreted by the Courts. If common sense prevails and a decent precedent is set then there may be hope. Watch this space.

Nice letter though, clearly setting out the common sense position enshrined within exising law. This may be enough to base a sound defence, lets hope so.

Good point about Scotland though. I think the PoFA may not apply in Scotland. In which case the OP should just ignore the b@st@rds. It would be interesting to find out if this is true.

All Cameron has to do, at little or no cost, to make us feel he is on our side and make us all feel better, are a few small gestures. Revoke this obscene section of the PoFA- cost = nothing. Abolish the ridiculous tolls on roads and bridge/tunnels-cost= three fifths of f**k all. Similar thinking applied to banks etc when they try to rip us off. All the swines that use 08 telephone numbers so we pay them to call them and complain. Come on Cameron- whose country and money is it? Clearly not yours.

That's better. Going to lie down now. Cheers Concrete

Incorrect Car Parking Fine - Bromptonaut

This particular section of PoFA does not apply in Scotland - most Transport stuff is devolved.

In any event the OP, never mind the alledged infringement, were well before these bits of PoFA came into effect; the PoFA discussion is a bit of thread drift.